Still No OL Help... Why?

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Postby DarthMonk » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:58 am

Though I mostly support SF33's overall thesis regarding the value of stats his fallback position is a bit troublesome -

skinsfan#33 wrote:Your quote above is not true, not even close, I don't know where you got your info.


The quote was true and still is. The source was www.pro-football-reference.com and I checked the math.

skinsfan#33 wrote:Interesting. I wonder what they consider a touch?


Really?

skinsfan#33 wrote:lThen the list isn't correct.


The list was correct and still is. See above.

skinsfan#33 wrote:Three different NFL coaching staffs disagree with you, but hey you know more than them! :roll:


Same goes for all of us - me included. Please self-insert an eye roll whenever you think you know more than three different NFL coaching staffs.

Anyway, with regards to the OL - I'm willing to trust the FO but sure would like to see at least some extra competition. The draft is fairly deep at OL (see threads) and Red's post shows how we are likely to proceed.

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Postby SkinsJock » Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:17 am

The offensive line was not as bad OR as good as the stats indicated - that's the thing; the play of so many facets of the offense can make stats for certain players look good or bad


There will be additions and subtractions here - FOR SURE - The tackle and guard positions need to be addressed to ensure better play + better depth
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Postby riggofan » Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:47 pm

I'm sure this $36M salary cap penalty is a big reason we haven't signed any o-line help yet. Has anybody looked at our salary cap situation lately? I think we have just enough left to sign our 2012 draftees.

It looks to me like we couldn't afford the real o-line studs. And the guys that we could possibly make some moves to afford aren't necessarily upgrades on what we have. Any thoughts on that?

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Postby 1niksder » Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:01 pm

riggofan wrote:I'm sure this $36M salary cap penalty is a big reason we haven't signed any o-line help yet. Has anybody looked at our salary cap situation lately? I think we have just enough left to sign our 2012 draftees.

It looks to me like we couldn't afford the real o-line studs. And the guys that we could possibly make some moves to afford aren't necessarily upgrades on what we have. Any thoughts on that?


$6,372,437 (money to spend) under the cap... but Meriweather, Griffin, and Grossman deals aren't included

$5.5M has been set aside for rookie signings and $3,460,000 for Performance Based Pay

Actual figure is $15,332,437
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Postby skinsfan#33 » Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:16 pm

DarthMonk wrote:Though I mostly support SF33's overall thesis regarding the value of stats his fallback position is a bit troublesome -

skinsfan#33 wrote:Your quote above is not true, not even close, I don't know where you got your info.


The quote was true and still is. The source was www.pro-football-reference.com and I checked the math.

skinsfan#33 wrote:Interesting. I wonder what they consider a touch?


Really?


Yes, because if they are using the number of touches (i.e. Rush, catch, PR, KR) and divide by the number of yards without any other qualification, then THE LIST IS WRONG. That is why I wanted to know what they considereed touches.

The number one guy on yards/touch was JL Higgins @ 17.3

Devery Henderson had 32 catches for 793 yards AND 4 rushes for 33 yards. No PR or KR. Total touches = 36, total yards yards 826 for 22.9 y/t. This is higher than 17.3!

Bernard Berrian's average was 18.7, again higher than 17.3!

Justin Gages average was 19.1, again higher than 17.3!

Vincent Jackson's average was 18.5, yep higher than 17.3!

Steve Smith's average was 16.9, yes lower than 17.3, but much higher than #2 on the list, Ted Ginn's 15.7!

So you can see. If the list is simply yards per touch, IT IS WRONG. If not it is misleading.

All of my stats came from pro-football-reference.com too.

DarthMonk wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:lThen the list isn't correct.


The list was correct and still is. See above.
[/quote]

No it isn't. See above!

I didn't feel like putting the effort into checking what was easy enough to see was wrong just by looking at how much migher the players on the Y/reception list than the y/t list. But since you punked me I decided to put a little effort into it.

DarthMonk wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:Three different NFL coaching staffs disagree with you, but hey you know more than them! :roll:


Same goes for all of us - me included. Please self-insert an eye roll whenever you think you know more than three different NFL coaching staffs.


Touché! UR right. My opinion is they need to add two starters, but as i said in an earlier post that isn't for me to decide. It is for the coaching staff to figure out how to fix the OL. They may not need to add anyone or they made do it later in FA or in the Draft, but it is clear it needs to be fixed!

DarthMonk wrote:Anyway, with regards to the OL - I'm willing to trust the FO but sure would like to see at least some extra competition. The draft is fairly deep at OL (see threads) and Red's post shows how we are likely to proceed.

DarthMonk


I'm willing to trust the front office too, but my trust doesn't come without some anxiety.
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Re: Still No OL Help... Why?

Postby yupchagee » Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:05 pm

Red_One43 wrote:
1niksder wrote:According to this

The Redskins don't need a lot of help on the offensive line.
The line ranked top 10 in run blocking and top 15 in pass blocking :shock:

31% of the carries were between the guards and the line ranked #2, the team ran more to the left than right or between the guards and that's where they ranked the lowest 25th behind LT and 18th around the end. The right side ranked 14th behind RT and 4th around the end.

With guys coming back from injury and the draft right around the corner, they be willing to wait.


Even if one doesn't agree with the interpretation of the stats, 1nik makes a valid point when you look at how Shanny builds his O lines. Here's a look at the 1998 line and the 2008 Bronco O lines.

Shanny seems to build his O line with low round draft choices and cast-offs.

When he sees an athletic LT in the draft and their is a need he goes after him i.e. Ryan Clady and Trent Williams. If he sees a guy in FA and the cost is to his liking then he will pursue. He will not break the bank for an O lineman. Yanda is an example here. in the FA market. He loves those athletic guys even though they aren't studs, Shanny believes that he can develop them. Chester fits this mold. Look at Lichtensteiger. In 2010, when he first took over for Dock, folks on the boards, screamed that he sucked and maybe he did then, but last year he was on his way to becoming one of our best linemen. Shanny expects the same with Chester.

Looking at how Shanny aquires O linemen, he seems to be content with picking up guys like Mo Hurt in the 7th round and the Undrafted Willie Smith and developing them. Not getting guys like Grubbs in the FA market doesn't seem to phase him.


Going back to 1niks' title, "The Redskins don't need a lot of help on the offensive line," he is spot on in the eyes of Shanny.

Lichtensteiger will be back and even better if the knee holds up.
Trent Williams, looking at the positives, was gaining consistency before caught consistently dating mary jane.
Chester is expected to get better
Monty - serivceable - look for a draft choice here
Brown - ? - Possibly a June 1st cut - Watching what happens here.



Depth: Now we have experience - definitely better off than last year at this time.

Mo Hurt - should get better
Willie Smith - was impressive - should get better
Tyler Polombus - played better than Brown at RT
Erik Cook - probably gone
Sean Locklear - Did Shanny owe him a favor or something? - he is long gone


Look for some late round picks, undrafted FA pick ups and June 1st vet cuts for more depth

Shanny said that the only problem that he saw with the O line last year was depth. He doesn't believe that we need a lot of help on the O line. Whether we agree or not, that explains why we have seen guys like Nicks, Winston and Grubbs sign with other teams.


1998 Denver Broncos Superbowl Champs Starting O line

LT Tony E. Jones Undrafted

LG Mark Schlereth Washington Redskins / 10th / 263rd pick / 1989

C Tom Nalen Denver Broncos / 7th / 218th pick / 1994

RG Dan Neil Denver Broncos / 3rd / 67th pick / 1997

RT Harry Swayne Tampa Bay Buccaneers / 7th / 190th pick / 1987


2008 Denver Broncos Starting O line - last year for Shanny


LT Ryan Clady Denver Broncos / 1st / 12th pick / 2008

LG Ben Hamilton Denver Broncos / 4th / 113th pick / 2001

C Casey Wiegman Undrafted

RG Chris Kuper Denver Broncos / 5th / 161st pick / 2006

RT Ryan Harris Denver Broncos / 3rd / 70th pick / 2007


http://www.pro-football-reference.com/t ... roster.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/t ... roster.htm


Lichtensteiger will be back and even better if the knee holds up.


That's a VERY big if.
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Re: Still No OL Help... Why?

Postby skinsfan#33 » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:59 am

yupchagee wrote:
Red_One43 wrote:Lichtensteiger will be back and even better if the knee holds up.


That's a VERY big if.


There is a real possibility he starts the season on the PUP or is simply not up to full strenght. Not a good thing for an itty bitty OG that struggles against powerful DTs.

Also, add JB to the big "IF" list. If his hip is OK at the biggining of the season he might play OK, but if it is bothering him like it has off and mostly on for the past two seasons he will be a big liability.

I'n sure MS and BA have a plan, but if that plan includes JB and CL as starting OL then RGIII will need to use all of his available skills to [prevent being one of the most hit QBs in the NFL like rex and Beck were.
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Postby DarthMonk » Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:40 pm

SF33, etal.

THE LIST IS CORRECT (if anyone besides us (me) cares)! (You out there cowboykillerzRED?)

You do know what a touch is.

skinsfan#33 wrote:Yes, because if they are using the number of touches (i.e. Rush, catch, PR, KR) and divide by the number of yards without any other qualification, then THE LIST IS WRONG. That is why I wanted to know what they considereed touches.


What you missed is the qualifiaction at the top of the list: 6.25 touches per scheduled game to qualify as leader. That's why Devery Henderson (36 touches, your number) doesn't qualify while the guy with 91 catches, 11 rushes, 14 punt returns, and 23 kick returns does.

My "punking" of you was just a re-punking of your punking of me, btw.

DarthMonk

skinsfan#33 wrote:
DarthMonk wrote:Though I mostly support SF33's overall thesis regarding the value of stats his fallback position is a bit troublesome -

skinsfan#33 wrote:Your quote above is not true, not even close, I don't know where you got your info.


The quote was true and still is. The source was www.pro-football-reference.com and I checked the math.

skinsfan#33 wrote:Interesting. I wonder what they consider a touch?


Really?


Yes, because if they are using the number of touches (i.e. Rush, catch, PR, KR) and divide by the number of yards without any other qualification, then THE LIST IS WRONG. That is why I wanted to know what they considereed touches.

The number one guy on yards/touch was JL Higgins @ 17.3

Devery Henderson had 32 catches for 793 yards AND 4 rushes for 33 yards. No PR or KR. Total touches = 36, total yards yards 826 for 22.9 y/t. This is higher than 17.3!

Bernard Berrian's average was 18.7, again higher than 17.3!

Justin Gages average was 19.1, again higher than 17.3!

Vincent Jackson's average was 18.5, yep higher than 17.3!

Steve Smith's average was 16.9, yes lower than 17.3, but much higher than #2 on the list, Ted Ginn's 15.7!

So you can see. If the list is simply yards per touch, IT IS WRONG. If not it is misleading.

All of my stats came from pro-football-reference.com too.

DarthMonk wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:lThen the list isn't correct.


The list was correct and still is. See above.


No it isn't. See above!

I didn't feel like putting the effort into checking what was easy enough to see was wrong just by looking at how much migher the players on the Y/reception list than the y/t list. But since you punked me I decided to put a little effort into it.

DarthMonk wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:Three different NFL coaching staffs disagree with you, but hey you know more than them! :roll:


Same goes for all of us - me included. Please self-insert an eye roll whenever you think you know more than three different NFL coaching staffs.


Touché! UR right. My opinion is they need to add two starters, but as i said in an earlier post that isn't for me to decide. It is for the coaching staff to figure out how to fix the OL. They may not need to add anyone or they made do it later in FA or in the Draft, but it is clear it needs to be fixed!

DarthMonk wrote:Anyway, with regards to the OL - I'm willing to trust the FO but sure would like to see at least some extra competition. The draft is fairly deep at OL (see threads) and Red's post shows how we are likely to proceed.

DarthMonk


I'm willing to trust the front office too, but my trust doesn't come without some anxiety.[/quote]
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Postby cowboykillerzRGiii » Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:26 pm

Id personally rather sign #59 then over pay a big name line man, at this point he is a bigger concern. I'm fine w what we got but I imagine this fo w at least bring.in competition from free agency and draft a guy they can develop. I like all our starters if healthy but the Baylor center might get a long look if round three rolls around and he is on the board still[/url]
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Postby 1niksder » Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:22 pm

John Keim wrote:The Redskins remain in talks with free agent OT Demetrius Bell.
The best tackle left on the market, Bell's signing would likely signal the end of Jammal Brown's time in Washington. Bell would also provide insurance for LT Trent Williams, who was suspended for the final four games of 2011 after repeatedly testing positive for marijuana.
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Postby skinsfan#33 » Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:33 pm

DarthMonk wrote:SF33, etal.

THE LIST IS CORRECT (if anyone besides us (me) cares)! (You out there cowboykillerzRED?)

You do know what a touch is.

skinsfan#33 wrote:Yes, because if they are using the number of touches (i.e. Rush, catch, PR, KR) and divide by the number of yards without any other qualification, then THE LIST IS WRONG. That is why I wanted to know what they considereed touches.


What you missed is the qualifiaction at the top of the list: 6.25 touches per scheduled game to qualify as leader. That's why Devery Henderson (36 touches, your number) doesn't qualify while the guy with 91 catches, 11 rushes, 14 punt returns, and 23 kick returns does.



Ok, I can admit when I am wrong. I looked for the qualifications for touches, but could find them either time I looked and only stumbled on the pop up discription when my mouse happened to scroll over the header. I don't know if i would have ever noticed it had you not said top of the list. I've been on that page for verious reason dozens of times and neveer noticed thos hidden discriptions.

Wow, you needed 100 touches to qualify. That is a lot! I wonder how many (non-RB) players even had enough touches to qualify for that list. Not too many I'm sure.
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Postby Kilmer72 » Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:40 pm

1niksder wrote:
John Keim wrote:The Redskins remain in talks with free agent OT Demetrius Bell.
The best tackle left on the market, Bell's signing would likely signal the end of Jammal Brown's time in Washington. Bell would also provide insurance for LT Trent Williams, who was suspended for the final four games of 2011 after repeatedly testing positive for marijuana.



How good is he? Enough to move our LT to right?

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Re: Still No OL Help... Why?

Postby TXSkinsFan » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:55 am

yupchagee wrote:
Red_One43 wrote:
1niksder wrote:According to this

The Redskins don't need a lot of help on the offensive line.
The line ranked top 10 in run blocking and top 15 in pass blocking :shock:

31% of the carries were between the guards and the line ranked #2, the team ran more to the left than right or between the guards and that's where they ranked the lowest 25th behind LT and 18th around the end. The right side ranked 14th behind RT and 4th around the end.

With guys coming back from injury and the draft right around the corner, they be willing to wait.


Even if one doesn't agree with the interpretation of the stats, 1nik makes a valid point when you look at how Shanny builds his O lines. Here's a look at the 1998 line and the 2008 Bronco O lines.

Shanny seems to build his O line with low round draft choices and cast-offs.

When he sees an athletic LT in the draft and their is a need he goes after him i.e. Ryan Clady and Trent Williams. If he sees a guy in FA and the cost is to his liking then he will pursue. He will not break the bank for an O lineman. Yanda is an example here. in the FA market. He loves those athletic guys even though they aren't studs, Shanny believes that he can develop them. Chester fits this mold. Look at Lichtensteiger. In 2010, when he first took over for Dock, folks on the boards, screamed that he sucked and maybe he did then, but last year he was on his way to becoming one of our best linemen. Shanny expects the same with Chester.

Looking at how Shanny aquires O linemen, he seems to be content with picking up guys like Mo Hurt in the 7th round and the Undrafted Willie Smith and developing them. Not getting guys like Grubbs in the FA market doesn't seem to phase him.


Going back to 1niks' title, "The Redskins don't need a lot of help on the offensive line," he is spot on in the eyes of Shanny.

Lichtensteiger will be back and even better if the knee holds up.
Trent Williams, looking at the positives, was gaining consistency before caught consistently dating mary jane.
Chester is expected to get better
Monty - serivceable - look for a draft choice here
Brown - ? - Possibly a June 1st cut - Watching what happens here.



Depth: Now we have experience - definitely better off than last year at this time.

Mo Hurt - should get better
Willie Smith - was impressive - should get better
Tyler Polombus - played better than Brown at RT
Erik Cook - probably gone
Sean Locklear - Did Shanny owe him a favor or something? - he is long gone


Look for some late round picks, undrafted FA pick ups and June 1st vet cuts for more depth

Shanny said that the only problem that he saw with the O line last year was depth. He doesn't believe that we need a lot of help on the O line. Whether we agree or not, that explains why we have seen guys like Nicks, Winston and Grubbs sign with other teams.


1998 Denver Broncos Superbowl Champs Starting O line

LT Tony E. Jones Undrafted

LG Mark Schlereth Washington Redskins / 10th / 263rd pick / 1989

C Tom Nalen Denver Broncos / 7th / 218th pick / 1994

RG Dan Neil Denver Broncos / 3rd / 67th pick / 1997

RT Harry Swayne Tampa Bay Buccaneers / 7th / 190th pick / 1987


2008 Denver Broncos Starting O line - last year for Shanny


LT Ryan Clady Denver Broncos / 1st / 12th pick / 2008

LG Ben Hamilton Denver Broncos / 4th / 113th pick / 2001

C Casey Wiegman Undrafted

RG Chris Kuper Denver Broncos / 5th / 161st pick / 2006

RT Ryan Harris Denver Broncos / 3rd / 70th pick / 2007


http://www.pro-football-reference.com/t ... roster.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/t ... roster.htm


Lichtensteiger will be back and even better if the knee holds up.


That's a VERY big if.




According to this Lichtensteiger could be ready by the end of OTA's and certainly by training camp (assuming no set backs of course).

http://blog.redskins.com/2012/03/20/mrs ... s-healthy/

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Postby DarthMonk » Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:27 am

Hey SF33:

This should probably be in a PM but when I posted that yac stat and you told me that list was a year old ... :oops:

I also noticed this isn't the first time we've "butted heads." We're good, right? Let's not stop when we disagree.

Speaking of OL. I can't believe we will stand pat. I would think/hope we'll have 2-4 new guys under 25 by the time we get down to 53. I think this is our current depth chart:

LT Williams, McCaskill
LG Licht, Hurt
C Monty, Cook
RG Chester
RT Brown, Smith, Polumbus

I think 4 of these guys were drafted by the 49ers!

Who's in trouble?

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Postby Irn-Bru » Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:53 am

You forgot to stick Bell in there, DM.
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