Criticsm of RG3 surfaces

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Postby Deadskins » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:51 am

Said Miller: "You know I can't say anything nice about somebody from Baylor."
Andre Carter wrote:Damn man, you know your football.


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Postby rskin72 » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:54 am

I have to laugh sometimes at the grenades you like to lob into these threads, poster. All you are offering is your opinion, which dissents from the majority of the posters on this site. I am not going to get agitated by posts from you that merely point out either your opinion, or others opinion, for whatever topic you care to discuss. Now, I do not have a problem with you expressing your points of view here....of course, I am not a moderator....but you do go that extra mile to try and stir the pot a bit.

I agree with you on one point, I do not follow football for the outside the lines type of stuff either. But, you did start this thread, and even though you did not directly reference the non-football criticism of RGIII, it was contained within the article you referred to......so again the grenade comment applies.

As to your comment that "you as a Redskin fan don't get to play the weak "well we hope he works out" angle" paragraph.... first of all, don't think you get to tell me, or anyone, what "cards" we can and can't play. Sorry....at the end of the day....none of what any of us write here really matters as we do not own the team, nor make the decisions concerning the team. We may be able to influence to some degree, especially if we take our $$$ and go elsewhere, but you can continue to write about what a disaster RGIII will be, and most of us will continue to think that he will develop into a very good/great franchise QB for us.....and none of those opinions will impact Snyder, Shanahan, Allen or even RGIII.

I also agree that come August it will be fun to watch him play, and I fully intend to have my butt in my seat for the Indy preseason game. We all know that the team took a gamble, but the vast majority of us, including the folks that make the decisions, thought it was worth the risk. We have NOT mortgaged our future, are you kidding with that statement.....rather the Shanahans, and to a lesser extent, Allen, have tied their stay's here in DC to RGIII, and time will tell if they decided wisely or not. I, for one, believe they did. But, our team has far more talent on it than the team that walked on the field two seasons ago. The primary missing ingredient, IMHO, between us being also-rans and a contender is the presence of a reasonably competent QB. MCNabb didn't work out....and I never thought that Grossman/Beck was the answer.

We will see what happens soon enough.....
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Postby Red_One43 » Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:24 pm

Rskin72 wrote:

My point basically was that this incident does not warrant throwing the racial flag......nor is it even in the same timezone as what those other black QB's that the author mentioned endured. In those cases....Joe Gilliam, James Harris, Doug Williams....careers, livelihoods, even lives...were adversely impacted due to the color of their skin.

I am not trying to make light of racism.....but I just do not draw the same conclusions on the motivation and impact of the scouts comments on RGIII as Mr. Freeman does.


Hey, I get that you are not trying to make light of racism. I get that you do not draw the same conclusions as Freeman I don't believe that everyone should draw the same conclusions as him. Everything is cool. Just differences of opinion on a taboo subject.

Freeman voiced his opinion an based it on examples of last minute criticism that has never been reported or substantiated by anyone. He also offered as evidence that type of verbiage that is consistent with the character and intelligence smears of black QBs in the past. Finally, he pointed out that the "unnamed source" only compares him to Vick and Newton.

To me, your reaction was to quickly dismiss any notion that race might be an issue. You claim that Freeman was "playing the race card where it need not be." What evidence do you offer to support that opinion?

You pointed out that Luck was criticized too?

Are you saying that the criticism of Luck that you posted a link for is the same type of criticism that these "unnamed" scouts said?

Compare what Phil Simms, former NFL QB said:

I mean, [how's] he going to do to match what they say he can do?


"But the one thing I don't see, I just don't see big-time NFL throws. I don't care what anybody says. I've watched a lot of him. He never takes it and rips it in there. And you can say what you want but, man, you've got to be able to crease that ball every once in a while. We see it every week in these games. Hey, he can develop it but even in the USC game, you know, he's very careful with it, guides it a lot. That's what I see.


To This:

“‘Everybody is just assuming because of the Heisman and the socks and all that bs. . . . they are ignoring a lot of bad tape that he’s had,’” one scout told McGinn. “‘I don’t think he has vision or pocket feel, which to me are the two most important components of quarterbacking. He’s just running around winging it. He’s [Michael] Vick, but not as good a thrower.’


And This:

He's got a little bit of a selfish streak, too. Everybody was laying on Cam, but for some reason this guy has become gloves off. He doesn't treat anybody good." Another scout also questioned the way Griffin deals with people.


If RGIII was criticized like Luck - and he has been - not about arm strength but not being pro ready - then there would be no discussion and wasn't until now.

Also look at the date of your article in your link - November 2011 - not a last minute "shotgun" attack of Griffin's character when there hasn't been none. Luck gets to be criticized for his ability and RGIII, having just as good character as Luck, gets his trashed. This is not the same.

I think that it is great that you are very aware of overt racism. Thank you for sharing that article on Black QBs. You are right that RGIII, Cam Newton and other black QBs will never have to deal with that kind of racism at that level, but they will have to deal with subtle racism on a wide scale especially if they have a bad season. You seem to be unaware of the effects of subtle racism. Am I correct here?

Concerning the pigskinreport.com article:

In recent days, a report surfaced in the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel which claimed two NFL scouts had reservations about RG III and that perhaps he was not receiving the scrutiny he deserved in regards to his play on the field and suggestions that he may be a selfish player.


By lumping "NFL scouts" into his article, Freeman opened himself up for criticism here, but to me, that doesn't take away from the "unnamed" sources' ridiculous criticism.

PSR dismisses the criticisms as the usual bones thrown out to the reporters in hopes of making a candidate slide. To back it up, PSR uses the same Phil Simms' criticsim from November and claims that it was a "few" months ago. Five months ago is hardly two weeks before the draft. Again, Phil Simms' criticism was in the context of footabll ability and he gave details about the rotation Luck's ball. There was no made up selfishness and "treats people badly" assertions.

PSR dismisses the Vick and Cam comparison and says, who else are we to compare him to? But then quickly dismisses Aaron Rodgers, but brings up the Steve Young comparison said that another NFL Network made. On THN Boards. I compared RGIII to both Rodgers and Young. I can't understand why the PSR writer says who are we supposed to compare him too? Doesn't sound like a sound argument to me.

Are there questions surrounding Robert Griffin III and his ability to play at the next level? Yes. There are questions surrounding Andrew Luck and every other player which will be selected in next week’s draft. None of those questions have anything to do with skin color and neither do the questions surrounding Griffin.


This a typical response to when a writer is trying to disagree with another. Change what he said. Freeman never said that it was not alright to queston the ability to play of RGIII. Freeman clearly pointed out that he was talking about the baseless assertions that attacked the character of RGIII. This article provided little evidence to support its author's view points. One thing Freeman has on his side of the argument is his findings fit the research done on subtle racism.

The best evidence that the PSR writer offers up is - the last minute character criticism of RGIII is not about skin color because he said so. That is no evidence at all.

Thanks again, MSF2 for posting the Freeman Article on 4/20/2012

http://www.workers.org/ww/2001/gilliam0118.php

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdo ... fl,wp11030

http://www.thepigskinreport.com/2012/04 ... d-by-race/

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Postby the poster » Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:04 pm

rskin72 wrote:I have to laugh sometimes at the grenades you like to lob into these threads, poster.


my problem with Washington redskin fans goes back a long way, back when I was still a fan of the team. it started, I'd say, around 2002-2003.

( there are some people in here that are just dying to tie me to either the Cleveland browns or the cowboys/giants/eagles and I have no ties, no interest, no nothing for any of those teams. or any OTHeR teams for that matter. that's how most people's brains are wired though. Its outside their reality to think or believe that this is simply a frustrated and disappointed former customer.)

back then, I noticed a trend. and it grew. and grew. and grew out of control. I noticed it everywhere I went, especially online. the redskin fan, mores than other fans, I noticed, were really braggadocios and thought of their team in such a regard that it was actually annoying. in fact, superstitious as we humans can be, I started believing redskin seasons were fated based on the average fan behavior. (afb). if they were annoyingly beating their chest and calling all the other teams their btch then I expected the worst. and the team would almost never back them up. fansof other teams , without solicitation, would point out that the redskin fan is known as being the most annoying and obnoxious about how good they think they are. so that's where it comes from. what I try to do is be the balance, because I know that in a redskins forum, there never is such a thing as balance. moreso than other teams,

But, you did start this thread, and even though you did not directly reference the non-football criticism of RGIII, it was contained within the article you referred to......so again the grenade comment applies.


the fact that I started the thread with a link that contains some non football stuff is pointless. I don't care about that stuff. at all. if you guys wanna talk about it, that's fine. I dont care. all I care about is the football stuff.
yes I brought it in here, but thats a huge distinction versus actually Being the unnamed scout and saying those things or even agreeing with it, which for the record I don't.

first of all, don't think you get to tell me, or anyone, what "cards" we can and can't play.


loosen up. the meaning behind that is I find it to be a disingenuous gesture for a redskin fan, who is keenly aware that this was a big gamble (3 first round draft picks and a high second round pick) , to come on here and say. well, we hope it works out.. win or lose we hope it turns outing our favor. it's a defnse mechanism people are employing, because they know in advance, people who are much, much meaner than me either in real life or on here are going to flood their conscious with things like "bwhahahaha". yeah, I know it sounds stupid and it woldnt bother you. but it Will bother some, and like I told aomebody, e erybodys ego is a little bit tied to their favorite sports team. egos protect one self from embarrassment. that's what that stmt sounded like to me. somehing a little girl would say.


We all know that the team took a gamble,


and then some. 3 first round draft picks plus a second round draft pick? no player in the HIsTORY of the NFL has been acquired for more.


But, our team has far more talent on it than the team that walked on the field two seasons ago.


I dunno, that's debatable. far more talent? far more? you do know they have won 11 games the past 2 years combined, right? you think it's mostly the qbs fault? you do know that the qb of 2 years ago is mostly seen as a backup nowdays himself?

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Postby SkinsJock » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:12 pm

dftt
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RG3 will benefit from having a full off season to prepare and a better 'fit' at both HC and OC

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Postby Irn-Bru » Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:40 am

the poster wrote:( there are some people in here that are just dying to tie me to either the Cleveland browns or the cowboys/giants/eagles and I have no ties, no interest, no nothing for any of those teams. or any OTHeR teams for that matter. that's how most people's brains are wired though. Its outside their reality to think or believe that this is simply a frustrated and disappointed former customer.)


Nobody's dying to tie you to another team. When you came on the forum, it was right around the time the Redskins and Browns were vying for the trade. Your very first post was meant to rub in that our win over the eventual Super Bowl champs gave the Browns the inside track. Just a few posts later you said

the poster wrote:you're not getting rg3 though so forget about him....he's a Cleveland brown....and your meaningless win vs the giants at the end of the year cost u him (thank u very much).


Not too long after that, when people were asking you what team you supported, you said that it was the last team we'd suspect. Then the story changed to no team. Then the story changed to "I was a Skins fan, but . . ."

If there's anything a cynic hates, it's being tied to something. But the posts — your words, not ours — speak for themselves. You gave up a little too much too early, and you'll never live it down, dude.



The rest of your post was tl;dr. You obviously are trying to work out some issues on the board. The good news is I can help, but the bad news is you'll have to be more clear. What is your question?
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Postby KazooSkinsFan » Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:08 pm

the poster wrote:my problem with Washington redskin fans goes back a long way, back when I was still a fan of the team. it started, I'd say, around 2002-2003


:shock: 02-03 is "back a long way?"

the poster wrote:believe that this is simply a frustrated and disappointed former customer


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Postby rskin72 » Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:56 pm

Red_One43.....Rg to your post, and yes, I agree.....having a rational conversation on the topic of racism....and sometimes even trying to define what constitutes racism....is like walking into a minefield blindfolded, never are entirely sure when an explosion could occur. While I appreciate your opinion, and that of the writer of the article, think that we probably will agree to disagree concerning whether or not this was an example of or motivated by racism.....and while I enjoy the civil debate, I would much rather debate non-social polarizing issues more revelant to football as a whole, and the Redskins as a team. At the end of the day, all this topic did was generate fodder for news talk for approximately 24-48 hours, and now it will be forgotten until next draft year.

The Poster.....we HAVE conversed about your status before, that you are a disgruntled Skin fan that somehow feels the need (and has the time) to hang around a Redskin FAN (short for FANATIC) web site and try to be a Debbie Downer with your postings. If you were a fan, and something happened (like the Skins sucking for, oh, the better part of the past 15 years or more) then I can understand that. But, to imply that the action of the fans turned you off to the Skins.....well....I find that to be a stretch. Why the heck are you a fan of a team if it is not to support them? Colin Cowherd says that Fans are irrational because they see their team through colored glasses....and he is absolutely accurate with that. Heck, I cannot even begin to tell you how many beer bets I have lost with my friends who are Eagle, Giant and Cowboy fans over the past few years....the absolute lowest point was when I lost a 12 pack to my buddy who is a Lion fan when we helped his team break their NFL record losing streak......the first time McNabb was benched for Grossman, who promptly fumbled and the turnover was returned for a Lion TD.

You tell me to loosen up....I am just that, trust me that I do not get all worked up on these websites....I enjoy reading all the information, and opinions, here...including the dissenters such as yourself.....but I disagree with those that want to provide me an OPINION, then expect that I regard it as FACT. In speaking about the trade for RGIII...and the scouts negative comments.....you have focused your attention in several threads as to the negatives surrounding this trade vice looking at the positive side while acknowledging that NONE of us really know how the story of RGIII's NFL career will be written....it is FAR to early. MOST of the posts I have read both here, and on other Skin sites, show enthusiasm for a QB who was a game changer in college, smart, agile, accurate passer....tempered by the reality that he has yet to play a down in the NFL.

As to the fact that we spend 3 first round draft picks and one second round pick (to which I would contend that we merely traded positions this year....so really only gave up two first round picks and a second).....how much is a potential franchise QB worth?? If RGIII turns out to be a second coming of a Manning, Brees, Brady (insert franchise QB) then everyone will reflect that this was a GREAT trade. But, I would ask, what were the other options?? Grossman and Beck part II? Trade for who? With the hit on our cap space, we were out of the Peyton Manning race before the gun even sounded. Wait and take a Tannehil, or other unproven QB who has far less credentials than either Luck or RGIII??

So....I have no problem with debating you concerning the team that I support and follow....as I am a FAN of the REDSKINS. Post your gloom and doom articles and remarks....and give me your opinions......but why don't you sometimes throw in some comments as to what you would do, how you would handle things.....provide some insight rather than just try to piss on everyone else's parade.
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Postby Countertrey » Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:14 pm

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Postby Red_One43 » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:11 pm

Rskin72 wrote:
Red_One43.....Rg to your post, and yes, I agree.....having a rational conversation on the topic of racism....and sometimes even trying to define what constitutes racism....is like walking into a minefield blindfolded, never are entirely sure when an explosion could occur. While I appreciate your opinion, and that of the writer of the article, think that we probably will agree to disagree concerning whether or not this was an example of or motivated by racism.....and while I enjoy the civil debate, I would much rather debate non-social polarizing issues more revelant to football as a whole, and the Redskins as a team. At the end of the day, all this topic did was generate fodder for news talk for approximately 24-48 hours, and now it will be forgotten until next draft year.


For me, I did not see us having a conversation on racism but a conversation on the "Criticism of RGII" which is the topic of this thread. One post introduced an article claiming that the criticism of RGIII - topic of the thread - was racially motivated. Even though you rather debate non-social polarizing issues more relevant to football, and the Redskins as a team, you decided to dismiss what the author was saying as "playing the race card."

I hear what you are saying - - moving on. :)

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Postby the poster » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:39 pm

rskin72 wrote:But, to imply that the action of the fans turned you off to the Skins.....well....I find that to be a stretch.


it starts with the #1 fan...everyything starts with him...snyder,,and what hes done to the redskins and how the customers of his have fallen prey to his marketing engine. (sports are great...a long time ago they coined the term "fan" to equate to their customers. there's a whole discussion about business in there and how modern society is starting to take a little from that concept, but i wayy digress)


You tell me to loosen up....I am just that, trust me that I do not get all worked up on these websites....I enjoy reading all the information, and opinions, here...including the dissenters such as yourself.....but I disagree with those that want to provide me an OPINION, then expect that I regard it as FACT.


fine. i do have the history of daniel synder-owner redskins on my side of the facts but i understand what youre saying.


In speaking about the trade for RGIII...and the scouts negative comments.....you have focused your attention in several threads as to the negatives surrounding this trade vice looking at the positive side while acknowledging that NONE of us really know how the story of RGIII's NFL career will be written....it is FAR to early.


youre focusing on me right now. what about all the skins fans (customers, excuse me, Daniel Snyder, I know you unleashed your latest marketing plan in March) (300 customers vs 1 me, Id say) who have taken the time to go to other teams boards prouncing "we're baccccK". Do you realize how that message is received, virtually every year, by giants customers for example in March?



As to the fact that we spend 3 first round draft picks and one second round pick (to which I would contend that we merely traded positions this year....so really only gave up two first round picks and a second)


and ill say at least for the 4th time on this website that i am talking about the number of draft picks they used to select rg3.

the first rounder this year from the rams. plus the two first rounders and the second rounder that was traded. they used four picks to select one guy.


If RGIII turns out to be a second coming of a Manning, Brees, Brady (insert franchise QB) then everyone will reflect that this was a GREAT trade.


thats what theyre gambling on. when you take such a gamble, you have to understand that people like me are going to exist. we're going to examine the gamble. its not everyday a team trades away what they did for one college kid.


But, I would ask, what were the other options?? Grossman and Beck part II? Trade for who? With the hit on our cap space, we were out of the Peyton Manning race before the gun even sounded. Wait and take a Tannehil, or other unproven QB who has far less credentials than either Luck or RGIII??


one could make the argument that the redskins roster is one of the least talented in the game and that saving their picks because they'll need them and they could always get a qb next year. u never know what happens . who knows, a matt schaub could get cut you never know. since the team is pretty weak, it could be drafting high again.

the point is, they took a gamble. we'll see if it pays off. i actually hope it does pay off and he becomes a great qb. but until then, people are gonna talk about it and its not always going to be about how rosy everything is.


So....I have no problem with debating you concerning the team that I support and follow....as I am a FAN of the REDSKINS.


your snyders customer or his prospect.

Post your gloom and doom articles and remarks....and give me your opinions......but why don't you sometimes throw in some comments as to what you would do, how you would handle things.....provide some insight rather than just try to piss on everyone else's parade.


the problem here is that there is only one thing TO do. if you got a leaking roof, what are ya gonna do - fix the basement? No, you can only fix the roof.

the redskins have one main problem...theyve got the worst owner in the sport (my opinion , i know theres a plenty of customers out there that feel hes good now or whatever). thats the team's problem...but its unfixable.

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Postby RG3 Fan » Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:48 am

"The Poster" you can certainly dish it out, but you can't handle a reasoned response to what you throw out.

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Postby SkinsJock » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:27 am

DFTT .... let her play with herself
Minds are like parachutes, they only work when they are open

RG3 will benefit from having a full off season to prepare and a better 'fit' at both HC and OC

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Postby the poster » Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:45 pm

RG3 Fan wrote:"The Poster" you can certainly dish it out, but you can't handle a reasoned response to what you throw out.


thanks. that makes me human.

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Postby rskin72 » Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:37 pm

Red_One43.....Rg All.... :)

The Poster....ok...I am not a ninja at quoting and pasting yet. so sorry for that.....makes my response seem a little disjointed.

I understand that the past...oh...two decades (by in large) have produced less than stellar results for us fans....but that is why we continue to look toward the future....and right now, I believe the Skins future is brighter rather than dimmer

I do not visit other teams web boards....why do I care about them? I barely have enough time in the day to visit the sites I want to visit...let lone other NFL teams web sites......and for teams that I could not care the less what their opinion is of my team. And...who cares if I seem to brag on my team....what other FAN does not do the same? R U kidding there? At the end of the day, we r just fans.....and if our team doesn't win, then we really do not have much to stand on, right? Oh, my team won 5 games last season, but beat the SB champs twice....heck, I would take those two losses every year, even to the 'Boyz, if we would win the SB.

WRT your comment on 4 picks used for RGIII....yes, there were 4 picks used....one was a trade UP of 4 draft spots....and the others were actual picks that we gave up. We traded spots in this years drafts....and provided 3 actual hard core draft picks (one two and two first rounders) for this priveledge. Time will tell if we chose correctly, but I am all in with the roll of the dice in that aspect. You could play the guessing game of "WHAT IF" forever....will Schaub be avaialble next season, if so lets just write off another horrible year in DC....and I disagree completely with the assertion that the Redskins Roster is among the least talented. I would promote the premise that our roster is skewing younger and faster, and that once we learn to play together as a team, we will be very dangerous vice the cellar dwellar we have been in the past several seasons.

And...I understand that there will be skeptics on theRGIII move.....but I expect to hear the hard criticism on NFL and ESPN sites...not a Redskin homer site. Outside of the two unnamed scout article, I have not heard ANYTHING to suggest that RGIII (or Lick for that matter) will be anything but productive players in the NFL. How much success they attain is a question that will be answered in a few years. Again....if you want to be gloom and doom on this trade, then that is your opinion. Personally I feverently hope you are wrong.......

With your last couple of comments, we get to the root of the issue...you believe that our owner the the root all of evil. Maybe he is....certainly the track history does not support him. I choose to believe that, after a decade or more of growing pains, he has come to realize how to build a WINNING team means the owner selects a top notch front office, GM, coach...then lets them do the heavy lifting (something Jerry Jones has yet to realize). The Skins owner spends money on his team, unlike many other teams/owners who just talk a good game. The key has always been to have Snyder spend money correctly....and Cerrato was a puppet who had no clue. Say what you want about Snyder...and I am no puppet for him....but he DOES spend money on his team....just look at our CAP during the 2010 season and you will see that we were at the TOP of the class (and arbitration on that will follow).

At the end of the day....to me....you can have whatever opinion you want.....but just remember, this is a Redskins centric web site......and it is ok to show support for the team while recognizing the obivious....we have sucked the past several years.......I have seen no comments here that would suggest otherwise.

So....the question is.....what side of the fence are you going to take.....gloom and doom for the Redskins as long as Snyder is owner....or hope in that the current FO/coach and second pick in this years draft (along with all the other moves that the team has made in the past 3 seasons) will jell into a competitive team that will challenge for playoff spots/NFC championships/Lombardi trophies. That is what Snyder wants...that is what the fan base wants...and I believe that is what the coaching staff/team wants....but is that what you want for the Skins?
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