Jerry Smith: Joe Sturgeon's comments @ ProFootballReference

Talk about the Washington Redskins here. Do you bleed burgundy and gold?
newbie
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:36 am

Jerry Smith: Joe Sturgeon's comments @ ProFootballReference

Postby dsjz59 » Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:29 am

It is totally irresponsible to publicly post that Jerry Smith is not in the NFL Hall of Fame because he's a homosexual. It is an inflammatory and ignorant comment that can serve no purpose other than sling mud at the Pro Football HOF and the NFL. I like Jerry Smith very much and I think he was a great TE, but let's evaluate the situation.

1) Better Tight Ends from that era, like Riley Odoms, Russ Franics still are not in the HOF and probably will never get in. They didn't get to play alongside Charley Taylor, Bobby Mitchell and have Sonny Jurgensen throwing to them either. Later in Smith's career it was Charley Taylor and Roy Jefferson.

2) Look how long it took guys like Mike Ditka and John Mackey to get in to the HOF. Do you seriously think Jerry Smith belongs in the HOF with Kellen Winslow, Ozzie Newsome, Dave Casper, Charlie Sanders, Ditka and Mackey?


3) If we're talking great Redskins who aren't in the HOF from that era, anyone with any kind of football knowledge can clearly see that Pat Fischer and Lemar Parrish (also Cincinnati) are much more deserving than Jerry Smith.

4) And what about Larry Brown? Sure his career was cut short, but any unbiased person would rather see him in Canton over Jerry Smith.

Mr. Sturgeon, I completely disagree with your opinion. This is a free country and you have a right to your opinion, but your Jerry Smith comment is just football nonsense. I don't see a passionate fan making a legitimate case for Jerry Smith's election to the HOF. I see someone making excuses for a personal favorite, a very good player who just isn't HOF caliber.

If I didn't know better I would suspect you are either a friend or relative of Jerry's or perhaps just lobbying for the gay community and trying to stir up controversy without just cause. It just doesn't add up, even a die hard Redskins fan like myself can see through your charade.

JSPB22
Online
User avatar
Posts: 16151
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:03 am
Location: Location, LOCATION!

Re: Jerry Smith: Joe Sturgeon's comments @ ProFootballRefere

Postby Deadskins » Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:52 am

dsjz59 wrote:They didn't get to play alongside Charley Taylor, Bobby Mitchell and have Sonny Jurgensen throwing to them either. Later in Smith's career it was Charley Taylor and Roy Jefferson.

Having those other receivers taking away touches should add to his case, not detract from it.
Andre Carter wrote:Damn man, you know your football.


Hog Bowl IV Champion (2012)

Hail to the Redskins!

DarthMonk
Posts: 4446
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:58 pm

Postby DarthMonk » Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:26 pm

By JW Nix (excerpts)

Gerald "Jerry" Smith

Jerry wasn't used much by the head coach, Hall Of Famer Otto Graham, in his rookie year. He caught 19 passes for 2 touchdowns that year.

Jerry was a back up WR initially, but with 2 Hall of Famers (Taylor and Bobby Mitchell) as the primary targets of the newly acquired Hall of Fame QB Sonny Jurgensen, Graham decided to move Smith to tight end. Jerry was used much like you now have seen Sterling Sharpe or Antonio Gates used. This was a trend setting move that allowed Smith to explode onto the NFL scene. In his 2nd season, Smith caught 54 balls for 686 yards and 6 TD's. In his 3rd season, Smith had his best season as a pro. He caught 67 passes for 849 yards and 12 TD's. Smith then caught 45, 54, and 43 passes the next 3 years to go with 24 TD's. Smith was hurt early in 1971 and only managed 16 catches with 1 TD. He was never quite the same again. These were all 14-game seasons.

Smith retired with a then NFL record 60 touchdown catches for tight ends. He finished 2nd All Time behind Hall Of Famer Mike Ditka for receptions and yards receiving by tight ends.

To this day, he ranks tops in Washington Redskin history for tight ends in catches, yards receiving and touchdowns. He is also tied with 3 others with 12 TD's caught in a season, and tied with 10 others with 3 TD's in one game (something he did twice). His team record 67 catches (in 14 games) for a tight end in a single season was surpassed by Chris Cooley (in 16 games) in 2005. Smith still ranks 3rd in Redskin history in TD catches, and 4th in receptions.

While Smiths statistics may pale in today's modern game, one must remember that the NFL "chuck" rule was 10 yards in his playing days. It was a much rougher game as well back then. Clotheslines were frequent, as were players diving at each others knees. If Smith had the luxury of only the 5 yard chuck rule of today, the statistics surely would have increased.

Smith may never be inducted into Canton. He died at the age of 43 in 1986 of AIDS. He never had told anyone that he was a homosexual, but was outed by former team mate and lover, running back David Kopay (the first NFL player to announce his being gay) shortly after Smith's death. Kopay has asserted the NFL's homophobia in those days was so prevalent, that once he had announced he was gay, several coaching offers were rescinded.

Not that much has changed nowadays, as Jeremy Shockey's comments on the Howard Stern show revealed, but there is a hope that the NFL Senior Committee can look past the man's lifestyle and the politics involved. Smith retired with superior stats comparatively to Hall of Fame tight ends such as John Mackey. He retired only 6 catches short of Ditka's then NFL record of receptions by a tight end in NFL history as well.

Jerry Smith may be a controversial subject to some. Even after everything that can be said for, or against him, his statistics tell a steadfast story. Smith was lauded by Sports Illustrated as a top pass catching tight end during his era.


DarthMonk
Hog Bowl III, V Champion (2011, 2013)

Hognostication Champion (2011, 2013)


Scalp 'em, Swamp 'em,
We will take 'em big score!
Read 'em, Weep 'em Touchdown,
We want heap more!

the 'mudge
Posts: 14640
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:15 pm
Location: Curmudgeon Corner, Maine

Re: Jerry Smith: Joe Sturgeon's comments @ ProFootballRefere

Postby Countertrey » Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:34 pm

dsjz59 wrote:It is totally irresponsible to publicly post that Jerry Smith is not in the NFL Hall of Fame because he's a homosexual. It is an inflammatory and ignorant comment that can serve no purpose other than sling mud at the Pro Football HOF and the NFL. I like Jerry Smith very much and I think he was a great TE, but let's evaluate the situation.

1) Better Tight Ends from that era, like Riley Odoms, Russ Franics still are not in the HOF and probably will never get in. They didn't get to play alongside Charley Taylor, Bobby Mitchell and have Sonny Jurgensen throwing to them either. Later in Smith's career it was Charley Taylor and Roy Jefferson.

2) Look how long it took guys like Mike Ditka and John Mackey to get in to the HOF. Do you seriously think Jerry Smith belongs in the HOF with Kellen Winslow, Ozzie Newsome, Dave Casper, Charlie Sanders, Ditka and Mackey?


3) If we're talking great Redskins who aren't in the HOF from that era, anyone with any kind of football knowledge can clearly see that Pat Fischer and Lemar Parrish (also Cincinnati) are much more deserving than Jerry Smith.

4) And what about Larry Brown? Sure his career was cut short, but any unbiased person would rather see him in Canton over Jerry Smith.

Mr. Sturgeon, I completely disagree with your opinion. This is a free country and you have a right to your opinion, but your Jerry Smith comment is just football nonsense. I don't see a passionate fan making a legitimate case for Jerry Smith's election to the HOF. I see someone making excuses for a personal favorite, a very good player who just isn't HOF caliber.

If I didn't know better I would suspect you are either a friend or relative of Jerry's or perhaps just lobbying for the gay community and trying to stir up controversy without just cause. It just doesn't add up, even a die hard Redskins fan like myself can see through your charade.


You have your opinion... You are WRONG. Here's MINE...... and one more....

I'm calling you on this... I'm certain that you NEVER saw Jerry Smith play. Your opinion reeks of troll, Mr. First Post...
"That's a clown question, bro"
- - - - - - - - - - Bryce Harper, DC Statesman
"But Oz never did give nothing to the Tin Man
That he didn't, didn't already have"
- - - - - - - - - - Dewey Bunnell, America

Skins History Buff
Posts: 4870
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 5:36 pm
Location: New York, NY

Postby welch » Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:57 pm

I agree with CT. I saw Jerry Smith play, and cannot think of a better pass-catching tight end from that era.

Smith caught the ball in traffic. He caught passes that other guys would have dropped. He made acrobatic catches. He ran after the catch.

When Smith retired, he was, as best I remember, the all-time leading pass receiver among tight ends, even though George Allen, the coach after 1971, hated risky plays like the forward pass. If my memory is correct, then that is evidence enough.

However, I will add a comment from someone who has more insight into passing than anyone. Sonny Jurgensen was a "color" broadcaster the year after he was forced to retire. George Allen liked big blocking tight ends, and he had signed Jean Fugett in hopes of replacing Smith.

The Redskins were trailing in the second half of a game. The broadcaster asked, "Sonny, it looks bad for the Redskins right now. What would you do?"

Without a blink or waiting a heart-beat, Sonny Jurgensen, the finest passer in modern football, replied, "Well, the first thing I'd do is get Jerry Smith off the bench and into the game!"

Hog
User avatar
Posts: 1195
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:02 pm
Location: Co. Cavan, Ireland

Postby SouthLondonRedskin » Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:05 pm

You're good Welch, thanks for that...
Here It Comes Again: Worst to First Baby!

JSPB22
Online
User avatar
Posts: 16151
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:03 am
Location: Location, LOCATION!

Re: Jerry Smith: Joe Sturgeon's comments @ ProFootballRefere

Postby Deadskins » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:43 am

Countertrey wrote:Your opinion reeks of troll, Mr. First Post...

That's what came to mind for me too.
Andre Carter wrote:Damn man, you know your football.


Hog Bowl IV Champion (2012)

Hail to the Redskins!

+++++++++
Posts: 5225
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 11:21 am

Postby Skinsfan55 » Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:46 am

Ha! Imagine my surprise to check out the main board for the first time in months to see my name in print.

Jerry Smith isn't in the hall of fame because he was gay. It's that simple. I never saw him play (I'm only 28) but I have looked at the numbers, and I have looked at what his contemporaries have had to say about him. Thom Loverro did an article a few months back for the Examiner about the ten best Redskins who aren't in the HoF and didn't even mention Smith... obviously, there's only one reason for his exclusion and it wasn't his contributions on the field.
"Guess [Ryan Kerrigan] really does have a good motor. And is relentless. And never quits on a play. And just keeps coming. And probably eats Wheaties and drinks Apple Pie smoothies and shaves with Valvoline." -Dan Steinberg DC Sports Bog

+++++++++
Posts: 5225
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 11:21 am

Postby Skinsfan55 » Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:48 am

Also, I had totally forgotten that I sponsored his profootballreference page. Awesome!
"Guess [Ryan Kerrigan] really does have a good motor. And is relentless. And never quits on a play. And just keeps coming. And probably eats Wheaties and drinks Apple Pie smoothies and shaves with Valvoline." -Dan Steinberg DC Sports Bog

newbie
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 9:36 am

In Response to Countertrey

Postby dsjz59 » Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:01 am

I signed up for this site simply because I was outraged by the comments made on the pro football reference site which linked to this site. Not only did I see Jerry Smith play, but I have more games in my possession from 1970-79, than anyone in the football industry, other than NFL films. My good friend Bob Carroll, God rest his soul, also got into arguments about Jerry Smith not being in the HOF. Not because he was anti-Jerry Smith, but because Redskins fans so often say the NFL didn't elect him because of bias against his sexuality. This is pure HOGWASH, pardon the pun.

I posted anonymously, but I am a football historian (age 59). I saw Jerry Smith play. Granted, I am going from memory when it comes to the games from '60s and admittedly I was very young at the time. However I have many Redskins games from the '70s that I have watched over and over again. I'm not talking about highlight films, I'm talking complete games. In fact a few of the members from the HOF selection committee ask me for input, concerning players from the '70s. If you really think Jerry Smith was better than Russ Francis, Riley Odoms and other Tight Ends that most football historians think were better than Jerry Smith, that's your opinion. But why can't this opinion be expressed without allegations of prejudice against the NFL HOF?

Currently I am working with a software company that is making a "retro" strategy PC football game, featuring the teams from the '70s. My job, along with two other historians, is to rate the players. Jerry Smith will have very good ratings and his quality of play will be well represented. I am not an apologist for the NFL. There are currently many problems within the NFL, I've even had a few beefs with the HOF selection process. However what this man wrote is basically libel. Redskins fans in general would be better represented making a case as to why Jerry Smith should be in the HOF, as opposed to writing inflammatory comments which can only serve to be divisive. I lobbied for a long time to get Paul Krause, Chris Hanburger and Roger Wehrli in the HOF. I thought it was ludicrous that it took so long to elect them. I plan on doing the same for Pat Fischer, LC Greenwood, Jake Scott and Cliff Harris (despite the fact that he is a Cowboy). I am unbiased when it comes to assessing players.

If you elect Jerry Smtih before Todd Christensen, Russ Francis and
Ben Coates, what will be said is that Mr. Smith got elected because he was gay, and the NFL HOF did it to be "PC" and to appease the gay community.

The truth of the matter is that we may not see another TE get in to the HOF until Tony Gonzalez becomes eligible.

the 'mudge
Posts: 14640
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:15 pm
Location: Curmudgeon Corner, Maine

Re: In Response to Countertrey

Postby Countertrey » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:48 pm

dsjz59 wrote:I signed up for this site simply because I was outraged by the comments made on the pro football reference site which linked to this site. Not only did I see Jerry Smith play, but I have more games in my possession from 1970-79, than anyone in the football industry, other than NFL films. My good friend Bob Carroll, God rest his soul, also got into arguments about Jerry Smith not being in the HOF. Not because he was anti-Jerry Smith, but because Redskins fans so often say the NFL didn't elect him because of bias against his sexuality. This is pure HOGWASH, pardon the pun.

I posted anonymously, but I am a football historian (age 59). I saw Jerry Smith play. Granted, I am going from memory when it comes to the games from '60s and admittedly I was very young at the time. However I have many Redskins games from the '70s that I have watched over and over again. I'm not talking about highlight films, I'm talking complete games. In fact a few of the members from the HOF selection committee ask me for input, concerning players from the '70s. If you really think Jerry Smith was better than Russ Francis, Riley Odoms and other Tight Ends that most football historians think were better than Jerry Smith, that's your opinion. But why can't this opinion be expressed without allegations of prejudice against the NFL HOF?

Currently I am working with a software company that is making a "retro" strategy PC football game, featuring the teams from the '70s. My job, along with two other historians, is to rate the players. Jerry Smith will have very good ratings and his quality of play will be well represented. I am not an apologist for the NFL. There are currently many problems within the NFL, I've even had a few beefs with the HOF selection process. However what this man wrote is basically libel. Redskins fans in general would be better represented making a case as to why Jerry Smith should be in the HOF, as opposed to writing inflammatory comments which can only serve to be divisive. I lobbied for a long time to get Paul Krause, Chris Hanburger and Roger Wehrli in the HOF. I thought it was ludicrous that it took so long to elect them. I plan on doing the same for Pat Fischer, LC Greenwood, Jake Scott and Cliff Harris (despite the fact that he is a Cowboy). I am unbiased when it comes to assessing players.

If you elect Jerry Smtih before Todd Christensen, Russ Francis and
Ben Coates, what will be said is that Mr. Smith got elected because he was gay, and the NFL HOF did it to be "PC" and to appease the gay community.

The truth of the matter is that we may not see another TE get in to the HOF until Tony Gonzalez becomes eligible.


The internet is a beautiful thing... you can claim to be anything you wish, and, poof, there you are. That's not intended as an insult, simply the way things are. I can equally claim to be a player agent, a retired player, or even the most interesting man in the world. It simply serves no purpose in an internet discussion forum. Even if true... it will not cow me. (though I will admit to carefully selecting my words when I was responding to Brian Mitchell...)

Jerry Smith was the prototype for the modern weaponized Tight End. He predated Christensen, Francis, and Coates. He was a prolific downfield receiver in an age when tight ends were blockers and, occasionally, an outlet for a desperate quarterback. He was the prototype for the prolific deep threat Tight End. You claim to have watched him... then you should know this. He set precedents that have converted into roles for the likes of Shannon Sharpe and Kellen Winslow.

You want to play?
Player Catches Yards TD's Games Played
Smith 421 5496 60 154

The players you identify (all of whom BEGAN as, or after, Smith retired... meaning from a different era...
Francis 393 5262 40 167
Christensen 451 5872 41 137
Coates 499 5555 50 158

Yeah... Smith more than holds his own... it's unfortunate that you don't
choose to compare him with players from his own era... that is whom
a player SHOULD be compared with...

Lets do that, with HOF Tight End Jackie Smith, of the Cardinals...
Jackie Smith 480 7918 40 210
Jerry stacks up quite well with this Hall of Fame player... Comparable stats in catches, far more touchdowns, less yardage, but also far fewer games played... You can make comparisons with other Tight Ends of the era... but their reception numbers will be lower... they were old style TE's. They were not the same type of weapon.

Against some of the most prolific HOF Tight Ends of the modern era...
Newsome 662 7980 47 198
Casper 378 5216 52 147
Winslow 541 6741 45 109
Sharpe 815 10060 62 204

Among this list of current Hall of Fame TE's, all of whom played after the rules on physical contact with receivers had been changed dramatically to the advantage of the receivers... Smith fares pretty darned well.

Only Sharpe has more touchdown catches... and Jerry would be 4th in total yards, and 3rd in catches. And, he retired long before most of these guys!

Smith belongs. Had he been nominated when he became eligible, he would have been very near the top in all categories. These guys were still playing in High School... or even in a crib... when Smith was Jurgensen's go-to receiver.

To suggest that "we" should be making the argument for his inclusion is an insult. We have little power. Art Monk did not get consideration until it became clear to some voters that they could not continue to claim he was not worthy in the face of installing Michael Irvin, who's career path was very similar. Fans have no vote. When you compare Jerry Smith's career with that of Jackie Smith, it becomes quite clear. Something stinks. Yup... we also don't understand why Larry Brown is not in, why the Mouse is not in, and others...

You call it what you want... I'll contend it's that brightly dressed elephant in the Hall of Fame Voter's booth that you want to pretend is not there....

You contend he was not worthy... yet, his numbers... and his importance to his team... were every bit as convincing as those 8 we compare him to... all of whom played at a time when the scales had been tipped a bit to benefit the receivers... Clearly, he was worthy... is worthy.

Yet... has he even been nominated? How's THAT for an elephant?

You contend that we are petty, that we see slights that simply don't exist... and, it enrages you...

Unfortunately, the facts on the ground speak for themselves. Jerry Smith belongs in the Hall... His stats dominate those of his contemporaries... except, HOF TE Jackie Smith, of the Cards... with whom he matches very well...
He belongs in the Hall... it's supported by his performance on the field, and by his career stats. Yeah... could be that his name just starts to far towards the end of the alphabet... but, more likely... it's something else.


It has a name. It is ugly...

I continue to contend that it's not inappropriate to wonder... LOUDLY... if a major reason... perhaps THE reason... Jerry Smith is not in the all, is homophobic prejudice among Hall voters.

Your turn, Mr Anonymous.
"That's a clown question, bro"
- - - - - - - - - - Bryce Harper, DC Statesman
"But Oz never did give nothing to the Tin Man
That he didn't, didn't already have"
- - - - - - - - - - Dewey Bunnell, America

JSPB22
Online
User avatar
Posts: 16151
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:03 am
Location: Location, LOCATION!

Postby Deadskins » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:25 pm

Ouch! :hail:
Andre Carter wrote:Damn man, you know your football.


Hog Bowl IV Champion (2012)

Hail to the Redskins!

Hog
Online
User avatar
Posts: 2044
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:36 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Postby emoses14 » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:52 pm

CT, very nice try, but I'm afraid you are just wrong on this one.


I am the most interesting man in the world.
I know he got a pretty good zip on the ball. He has a quick release. . . once I seen a coupla' throws, I was just like 'Yeah, he's that dude.'"

-Santana Moss on Our QB

the 'mudge
Posts: 14640
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:15 pm
Location: Curmudgeon Corner, Maine

Postby Countertrey » Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:51 pm

emoses14 wrote:CT, very nice try, but I'm afraid you are just wrong on this one.


I am the most interesting man in the world.
:up:

Best reply of the week! :hail:
"That's a clown question, bro"
- - - - - - - - - - Bryce Harper, DC Statesman
"But Oz never did give nothing to the Tin Man
That he didn't, didn't already have"
- - - - - - - - - - Dewey Bunnell, America

DarthMonk
Posts: 4446
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:58 pm

Postby DarthMonk » Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:54 pm

Russ Francis should be in the HOF way before Jerry Smith. Francis only SOUNDS gay.

-drinking

Good grief.

Really enjoyed the read, Trey. I thought about another reply. Glad I didn't. You did way better than I would've.

DarthMonk
Hog Bowl III, V Champion (2011, 2013)

Hognostication Champion (2011, 2013)


Scalp 'em, Swamp 'em,
We will take 'em big score!
Read 'em, Weep 'em Touchdown,
We want heap more!

Return to Hog Wash - Washington Redskins Football