Morris and the secondary.

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Postby SkinsJock » Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:55 am

^^ - good point Chris - could not agree more

especially when you think about all the layers that have had to be addressed with this franchise over the past few years

just bringing in great players and great coaches is what Dumb & Dumber tried - what a disaster that was


we are still a franchise that is finding our way back to respectability

We have just added a key ingredient and a player we can build an offense around for years - finding all the right pieces and the right guys to coach and motivate them is critical

we're going to see some more progress but this franchise will have to endure some more growing pains before we see the full effect of what good planning and properly building a team can accomplish

Haslett is the DC but he's also doing what Mike wants - his players and coaches are doing what he wants them to do

Morris IMO can only help both the secondary and this defense - his expertise is getting more from his players
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Postby Chris Luva Luva » Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:38 am

SkinsJock wrote:^^ - good point Chris - could not agree more

especially when you think about all the layers that have had to be addressed with this franchise over the past few years


Chris Luva Luva wrote:This team had layers upon layers of issues. Ownership, FO, Coaching, Training staff, facilities, scheme, players, depth.... Let's get real here.


THe only things left unchanged are the ownership. Mike Has had to come in and FIX EVERYTHING ELSE. That wasn't what he had in mind when he signed the contract. You don't quite know how much work a house needs till you're living in it.



SkinsJock wrote:just bringing in great players and great coaches is what Dumb & Dumber tried - what a disaster that was


They have to be great together. Or mesh well together. The FO has to supportive. It was never an entire group working towards a common goal.

Norv - Snyder screwed him over.
Marty - Snyder screwed him over.
Ball Coach - incompetent coach and FO
Gibbs - incompetent FO, training facilities, etc to aid a great coach. Gibbs was a bit dated in some regards but a good supporting FO would have made his transition easier and more successful.
Zorn - Snyder/FO screwed him over. Never had real respect.

And now we have Mike....

Mike - told Snyder to GTFO of my way and let me handle it. And he has methodically transformed this organization in ways that don't equate to Wins and Losses. Only blind, impatient and uninformed "fans" would state otherwise.



SkinsJock wrote:We have just added a key ingredient and a player we can build an offense around for years - finding all the right pieces and the right guys to coach and motivate them is critical


IMO, giving Mike the time to do it is more critical. Snyder must realize that his house was in complete disarray. Mike had to do more than he should have just to get back to zero, Snyder had this time in the negative.
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Postby crazyhorse1 » Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:32 am

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
SkinsJock wrote:^^ - good point Chris - could not agree more

especially when you think about all the layers that have had to be addressed with this franchise over the past few years


Chris Luva Luva wrote:This team had layers upon layers of issues. Ownership, FO, Coaching, Training staff, facilities, scheme, players, depth.... Let's get real here.


THe only things left unchanged are the ownership. Mike Has had to come in and FIX EVERYTHING ELSE. That wasn't what he had in mind when he signed the contract. You don't quite know how much work a house needs till you're living in it.



SkinsJock wrote:just bringing in great players and great coaches is what Dumb & Dumber tried - what a disaster that was


They have to be great together. Or mesh well together. The FO has to supportive. It was never an entire group working towards a common goal.

Norv - Snyder screwed him over.
Marty - Snyder screwed him over.
Ball Coach - incompetent coach and FO
Gibbs - incompetent FO, training facilities, etc to aid a great coach. Gibbs was a bit dated in some regards but a good supporting FO would have made his transition easier and more successful.
Zorn - Snyder/FO screwed him over. Never had real respect.

And now we have Mike....

Mike - told Snyder to GTFO of my way and let me handle it. And he has methodically transformed this organization in ways that don't equate to Wins and Losses. Only blind, impatient and uninformed "fans" would state otherwise.



SkinsJock wrote:We have just added a key ingredient and a player we can build an offense around for years - finding all the right pieces and the right guys to coach and motivate them is critical


IMO, giving Mike the time to do it is more critical. Snyder must realize that his house was in complete disarray. Mike had to do more than he should have just to get back to zero, Snyder had this time in the negative.


Transforming the team in such a way that doesn't equate with wins and losses doesn't count for anything positive. Mike is still unproven here-- worse record than coaches we regard as duds, as well as blatantly unsound moves. If RG111 doesn't work out, Mike will be gone. Should be gone.

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Postby skinsfan#33 » Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:41 am

Countertrey wrote:Hall absolutely deserves to be blown up, for failing to display very fundamental, sound cornerback play in that situation.

Haslett absolutely should have come out with a more conservative play... but, if Hall actually played as if he had a clue on that play, the game is over. Period.


OK, I'm not getting through. There is no way any DB could have played that play and had it succeed. Nothing Hall could have done would have prevented a completion.

But obviouly some people don't agree. I'm OK ith that.
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Postby skinsfan#33 » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:10 pm

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Norv - Snyder screwed him over.


I don't agree. Norv is not a HC. It was clear he is not a HC before Snyder got the team. His two HC jobs since Washington have been failures too.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Marty - Snyder screwed him over.

Completely agree, but he should never have been hired. No longer and NFL HC. Couldn't get an excellent San Diego team anywhere in the playoffs and got fired at 14-2 (never to be hired again).

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Ball Coach - incompetent coach and FO

Agreed

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Gibbs - incompetent FO, training facilities, etc to aid a great coach. Gibbs was a bit dated in some regards but a good supporting FO would have made his transition easier and more successful.


You do realise Gibbs was the head man in that incompetant FO? Gibbs "dated" system showed the most success in the last 20 years (1500 yard receiver (well close enough) and a 1500 yard rusher). The past 20 seasons the Skins have been to the playoffs four times. Gibbs was the coach of five of those 20 seasons and accounted for three of the playoff births. Gibbs 2.0 went two out of four seasons. Gibbs' playoff success just dwarfs all of the other coaches for those other 15 seasons.

That said, the FO was the problem and Gibbs was part of that FO. Gibbs' decission to hire Saunders after a playoff run was another big mistake.

Chris Luva Luva wrote:Zorn - Snyder/FO screwed him over. Never had real respect.


Snyder let Vinnie hire Zorn, but never believed in him. That eventually got Vinnie fired (thank the gods!)

Chris Luva Luva wrote:And now we have Mike....

Mike - told Snyder to GTFO of my way and let me handle it. And he has methodically transformed this organization in ways that don't equate to Wins and Losses. Only blind, impatient and uninformed "fans" would state otherwise.



SkinsJock wrote:We have just added a key ingredient and a player we can build an offense around for years - finding all the right pieces and the right guys to coach and motivate them is critical


IMO, giving Mike the time to do it is more critical. Snyder must realize that his house was in complete disarray. Mike had to do more than he should have just to get back to zero, Snyder had this time in the negative.


Hopefully Mike get all the time he needs to build a winner. Hell if Norv can get seven season Mike should get as long as he needs.
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Postby SkinsJock » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:27 pm

crazyhorse1 wrote:.... Mike is still unproven here -- worse record than coaches we regard as duds, as well as blatantly unsound moves.
If RG111 doesn't work out, Mike will be gone. Should be gone.


Mike and a few others will be gone if RGIII does not become a good QB - agreed

That is just not happening - the only issue/question about RGIII is how good will he be - not, if he will be good

I doubt that even he achieves greatness in one season .... but he will in time :D

It will take time but it will be clear, this season, to everyone that this kid is a very special NFL player and QB

I agree with Chris - Mike needs time to get this franchise out of the huge hole Snyder had them in

Mike & Bruce are part way there - hopefully, all the parts can gel better this season - I think they do

we're about to see - 3 more months
It's taken years for the Redskins to become as bad as we are - there is no way that the team is going to be consistently competitive in the near future, the problems here are complex - we'll win some games but it will take years to be good again

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Postby Countertrey » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:35 pm

skinsfan#33 wrote:
Countertrey wrote:Hall absolutely deserves to be blown up, for failing to display very fundamental, sound cornerback play in that situation.

Haslett absolutely should have come out with a more conservative play... but, if Hall actually played as if he had a clue on that play, the game is over. Period.


OK, I'm not getting through. There is no way any DB could have played that play and had it succeed. Nothing Hall could have done would have prevented a completion.

But obviouly some people don't agree. I'm OK ith that.
You are right... we don't agree. Hall played that pass for the pick, which is why he bit on the headfake. He was playing to undercut the route, get the pick. It was a Meangelo play, NOT a team play. He was swinging for the fences, when all we needed was for him to put the ball in play.

A competent, disciplined DB plays that to either knock the ball down, OR make a tackle short of the first down. In that game situation, he absolutely DOES NOT surrender his cushion until that receiver is approaching the first down marker, or the ball is in the air. He NEVER lets the reciever close the cushion, nor get behind him without the ball. Now, you tell me... did he do that?
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Postby Chris Luva Luva » Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:49 pm

crazyhorse1 wrote:
Transforming the team in such a way that doesn't equate with wins and losses doesn't count for anything positive. Mike is still unproven here-- worse record than coaches we regard as duds, as well as blatantly unsound moves. If RG111 doesn't work out, Mike will be gone. Should be gone.


Respectfully, I believe that stance is very narrow minded.

How anyone can not view any positivity in this regime isn't looking.

Practice bubble - positive
Improving strength/conditioning program - positive
The Draft - HUGE FREAKING IMPROVEMENT
Overall team age - Improved/positive

To actually comprehend the full scope of how bad this org was and to see the incremental improvements, you'd see a positive. I think some of us realize that change won't happen overnight, especially for a team as bad off as they were. Once/if he turns this thing around, everyone's gonna wanna act like they knew it'd happen.

And even if Mike doesn't, he's plugged so many holes in the ship that the next man that takes over can focus solely on Sundays ala Jim Harbaugh....



skinsfan#33 wrote:You do realize Gibbs was the head man in that incompetant FO?


IMHO, he was a figure head. At the root, it was the same show and shenanigans at a FO level.
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Postby riggofan » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:18 pm

skinsfan#33 wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:Marty - Snyder screwed him over.

Completely agree, but he should never have been hired. No longer and NFL HC. Couldn't get an excellent San Diego team anywhere in the playoffs and got fired at 14-2 (never to be hired again).

[/quote]

Never should have been hired?? Good grief look at the Chargers' freaking records leading up to his hiring. 4-12, 5-11, 8-8, 1-15, 5-11. All Marty did was assemble that excellent team and coach them to their best ever record of 14-2. I realize he lost in the playoffs that year. Unfortunately for him the Patriots were pretty good then too.

The Marty year here in DC is the one that really burns me up. I think he was trying to do then what Shanny is doing now which was put together a professional football team and run it properly. Snyder's impatience and ignorance in firing him so quickly really set us back IMHO. I think our team history would be a LOT different if he had stuck with Marty.

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Postby Deadskins » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:20 pm

skinsfan#33 wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:Marty - Snyder screwed him over.

Completely agree, but he should never have been hired. No longer and NFL HC. Couldn't get an excellent San Diego team anywhere in the playoffs and got fired at 14-2 (never to be hired again).

Totally disagree with the highlighted. He was the one that got them to 14-2. And he retired after being fired, which is why he hasn't been hired again.
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Postby SkinsJock » Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:55 pm

pay attention now

It takes more than just players and coaches

Marty was not going to continue here because he knew he could not get it done with Snyder in charge - Snyder was not leaving

Mike was not coming in here with Snyder in charge - even then I think he was stunned to realize how bad things were

the reason it is taking a great HC & a good GM so long to turn things around is because of the mess that Snyder & co had got this franchise into

we're getting there but it takes time
It's taken years for the Redskins to become as bad as we are - there is no way that the team is going to be consistently competitive in the near future, the problems here are complex - we'll win some games but it will take years to be good again

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Postby skinsfan#33 » Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:46 pm

Deadskins wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:Marty - Snyder screwed him over.

Completely agree, but he should never have been hired. No longer and NFL HC. Couldn't get an excellent San Diego team anywhere in the playoffs and got fired at 14-2 (never to be hired again).

Totally disagree with the highlighted. He was the one that got them to 14-2. And he retired after being fired, which is why he hasn't been hired again.


No he didn't! What ever gave you that idea? His name kept coming back up during coaching searches. And if he was retired, why did he take the HC job of some UFL Virginia Destroyers.
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Postby skinsfan#33 » Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:53 pm

riggofan wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:Marty - Snyder screwed him over.

Completely agree, but he should never have been hired. No longer and NFL HC. Couldn't get an excellent San Diego team anywhere in the playoffs and got fired at 14-2 (never to be hired again).



Never should have been hired?? Good grief look at the Chargers' freaking records leading up to his hiring. 4-12, 5-11, 8-8, 1-15, 5-11. All Marty did was assemble that excellent team and coach them to their best ever record of 14-2. I realize he lost in the playoffs that year. Unfortunately for him the Patriots were pretty good then too.

The Marty year here in DC is the one that really burns me up. I think he was trying to do then what Shanny is doing now which was put together a professional football team and run it properly. Snyder's impatience and ignorance in firing him so quickly really set us back IMHO. I think our team history would be a LOT different if he had stuck with Marty.[/quote]

I can't disagree with anything you said and I still think he should have never been hired. He is a great regular season HC, one of the best, but a horrendous playoff coach. That is why I didn't want him hired.
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Postby SkinsJock » Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:21 pm

riggofan wrote: .... The Marty year here in DC is the one that really burns me up. I think he was trying to do then what Shanny is doing now which was put together a professional football team and run it properly. Snyder's impatience and ignorance in firing him so quickly really set us back IMHO. I think our team history would be a LOT different if he had stuck with Marty.


I cannot agree - I do think that Marty is a very good HC but that was not going to help much here
- short term, maybe .. but not if you have people like Dumb & Dumber in charge

You have to have management, coaching and player acquisition, by people that know what they're doing

Marty was only a very good coach - that is not enough





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Postby SkinsJock » Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:23 pm

and Marty is not as good a HC as Mike
It's taken years for the Redskins to become as bad as we are - there is no way that the team is going to be consistently competitive in the near future, the problems here are complex - we'll win some games but it will take years to be good again

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