is Joe Gibbs the most overrated coach of all time?

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Postby Redskin in Canada » Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:14 pm

Whoever deleted my post could have sent this stupid thread to smack as kindly requested.

Way to go. :roll:
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Postby Irn-Bru » Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:18 pm

Redskin in Canada wrote:Whoever deleted my post could have sent this stupid thread to smack as kindly requested.

Way to go. :roll:


You can find your post, along with the others that were attacking the poster, in the Smack Forum.

http://thehogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38168
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Postby Redskin in Canada » Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:25 pm

Has anybody seen sick POSTS ... (more details in the smack thread)

... DESPERATELY SEEKING ATTENTION???

Do not do the honour to oblige them with a RESPONSE

Thank you for your cooperation.
Daniel Snyder has defined incompetence, failure and greed to true Washington Redskins fans over the last decade. Stay away from football operations !!!

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Postby Redskin in Canada » Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:27 pm

Irn-Bru wrote:
Redskin in Canada wrote:Whoever deleted my post could have sent this stupid thread to smack as kindly requested.

Way to go. :roll:


You can find your post, along with the others that were attacking the poster, in the Smack Forum.

http://thehogs.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38168

Well, there were TWO options to handle a deliberate provocation to the members of the board. Yours was one of them. A matter of judgement. :wink:
Daniel Snyder has defined incompetence, failure and greed to true Washington Redskins fans over the last decade. Stay away from football operations !!!

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Postby rskin72 » Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:46 pm

After reading this a couple of times I am again reminded of just how much time and effort you will devote to a team that, by your own words, you do not like/follow/support anymore. While there are some statements that are true (i.e. w/l records), there are many more suppositions drawn from faulty logic…..or the mere premise to try and tweak those of us who come to a Redskins homer website to discuss the team we support in friendly confines. While we may disagree on various Redskin related issues, we are still united in the desire to see our team succeed, and return to glory.

I would dispute your first premise, the definition of overrated. I fail to see how a HOF coach with a winning pct of .621 (.674 if you take away his record when he returned in 04)….which is higher than either Walsh or Parcells…. with 3 SB rings and a 4th trip to the SB, …with three different starting QB’s…could be even in the conversation as overrated. Is Phil Jackson overrated because he only won with “star players”? Is Bill Walsh overrated because he only won with Joe Montana….after all, Walsh had a losing record with the 49er’s prior to the 81 season when Montana started all 16 games? Overrated to me implies someone or something that is highly touted, but consistently fails to live up to expectations. Since the expectation of a NFL franchise is to make it to the playoffs, then to the SB, and to ultimately win the SB, I would say that Joe Gibbs met and exceeded expectations. I can provide some examples that I would classify as overrated…such as the Dallas Cowboys teams of the past decade, Norv Turner, Tony Romo, Steve Spurrier as a NFL coach, Pete Carrol as a NFL coach…sure others on this board can come up with other pertinent examples.

I also love how you seem to consider the strike shortened seasons as some type of advantage for the Redskins over other teams. Each team had the same problem set during a strike season. How is it that the same organizations that could put together multiple SB winning teams in the 80’s like the 49ers and the Giants were suddenly inept for a strike shortened season? For example, in ’87 the Giants were just coming off of a 14-2 season in ’86 and a SB victory...so I fail to see how the Redskins were at a competitive advantage there. In 87, the 49er’s had a better regular season record than the Redskins at 13-2, but LOST to the Vikings in the playoffs, a team that the Redskins beat on their way to a SB triumph. Oh, by the way, that Vikings team was a wild card entry, and was 8-7 during the regular season. Bottom line is that you play with the cards that you are dealt. It is neither the Redskins nor Joe Gibbs fault that those strikes happened….but you chose to give the other teams/coaches a free pass for those two seasons while holding it against Joe Gibbs.

Same rational holds true WRT salary cap….or the lack therein…back in the 80’s. Just like today, every team played under the same rules. Let’s take one year in example, 1987, where the Skins roster was 19th for average salary that season (http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-1360126.html) You say it was wide knowledge that the Redskins had a larger budget that other teams….citing the Eagles as an example of who we outspent….but you fail to provide references for your assertions. And, based on your prior arguments, why bring up the Eagles….I would ask how did we spend as compared with other winning organizations at the time? It appears that you conveniently forget about Eddie DeBartolo Jr., owner of the 49ers…..he spent a lot of money on his team/organization as evidenced by this paragraph http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/sport ... wanted=all

“DeBartolo gave it to them. In the days before the salary cap, he provided Walsh with an embarrassment of talent, including, at one point, three All-Pro nose guards. He flew the team on a private plane and gave players’ wives necklaces after Super Bowl triumphs. “

Also, this article provides insight that, again in ’87, the Giants and 49ers spent more in player salaries than did the Redskins….though you would appear correct about the Eagles being outspent by us.
http://articles.mcall.com/1987-02-15/sp ... erage-base

This “level playing field” argument is baseless as well. Each team has always played under the same set of league rules. If some teams decided to spend more on player salaries to improve their team vice owners pocketing a larger share of the profits…then that was a decision of the team’s owner. And, as it has been well documented, just because a team owner spends money does not ensure success…..just look at the Redskins over the past few seasons.

The argument of who the Redskins beat in the playoffs back in the 80’s is also a meaningless point as we did not pick our opponents….the record and seeding provided that pairing. Maybe Walsh and Parcells are overrated because their teams lost to inferior competition many times, so more playoff meetings between those teams and the Redskins were not possible…..Heck, Walsh was one and done for 3 straight seasons from 85 – 87. Also, Gibbs took his teams to more playoff games than either Walsh or Parcells and had a higher playoff winning percentage than Parcells…..would have had a higher percentage than Walsh as well if we take out his second stint as a Redskin head coach and compare his record in the 80’s only. Also…that 17-0 loss that the Redskins had to the Giants in 86 that you mention…well, those same Giants smoked Walsh and the 49ers 49 – 3.

Finally, Gibbs HAS been judged, and found worthy, by the HOF voters. So….if you want to debate as to which coach was BETTER, then we can have a civil discussion about that topic. But, as to if a legend (Joe Gibbs) is overrated….well…..that argument holds no water, and you have provided little to no actual evidence to the contrary other than head to head records between Walsh, Gibbs and Parcells.


And....yes....I was bored at work today.....
Last edited by rskin72 on Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ATX_Skins » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:15 pm

^^ Jesus dude, you should publish that novel.
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Postby rskin72 » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:20 pm

ATX_Skins wrote:^^ Jesus dude, you should publish that novel.


Did I mention that I had a bit of time at work to devote to a worthy cause?
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Failures are expected by losers, ignored by winners.

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Postby ATX_Skins » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:24 pm

rskin72 wrote:
ATX_Skins wrote:^^ Jesus dude, you should publish that novel.


Did I mention that I had a bit of time at work to devote to a worthy cause?


I want to work where you work :D
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Postby Hooligan » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:33 pm

](*,)
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Postby fetus » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:56 pm

Idiot
RGIII and the terrible D

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Postby the poster » Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:45 pm

rskin72 wrote:After reading this a couple of times I am again reminded of just how much time and effort you will devote to a team that, by your own words, you do not like/follow/support anymore.


thank you.


While there are some statements that are true (i.e. w/l records), there are many more suppositions drawn from faulty logic…..or the mere premise to try and tweak those of us who come to a Redskins homer website to discuss the team we support in friendly confines.


do tell, old man.

While we may disagree on various Redskin related issues, we are still united in the desire to see our team succeed, and return to glory.


no harm in that. go on...

I would dispute your first premise, the definition of overrated. I fail to see how a HOF coach with a winning pct of .621 (.674 if you take away his record when he returned in 04)….which is higher than either Walsh or Parcells…. with 3 SB rings and a 4th trip to the SB, …with three different starting QB’s…could be even in the conversation as overrated.


well....I would say (and I did, in the very first couple of sentences) that his resume is the reason why he or someone like him would even be eligible for this discussion. I'm not going to say Marty schottenheimer is the most overrated coach of all time.....he is what he is. no one would even consider Marty or norv turner, to use your example, coaches that are considers legendary.

put it to you another way........there's probably only 5-10 coaches even eligible in MY definition of overrated and they all have, on the surface, glowing resume and they all are, should,or will be in the hall of fame.

Overrated to me implies someone or something that is highly touted, but consistently fails to live up to expectations.


neither you or me has a copyright on an overrated definition. another definition could have something to do with somene's accomplishments being not as great as they appear at first glance, for example. which brings us back to sentence 1 from the original.

Since the expectation of a NFL franchise is to make it to the playoffs, then to the SB, and to ultimately win the SB, I would say that Joe Gibbs met and exceeded expectations.


this topic has nothing to do with meeting or even simply exceeding expectations.


I can provide some examples that I would classify as overrated…such as the Dallas Cowboys teams of the past decade, Norv Turner,
Tony Romo, Steve Spurrier as a NFL coach,


of course you would. that did nothing to change the stereotype of the avg redskin fan.

(as if anyone is calling any of them one of the greatest of all time in the first place)



I also love how you seem to consider the strike shortened seasons as some type of advantage for the Redskins over other teams.


never said they did. can u find one sentence where I said this was an advantage for the redskins?

you can't. because I didn't.

I DID say no front office did a better job than the redskins for those seasons. which is a part of the argument for the topic.


Same rational holds true WRT salary cap….or the lack therein…back in the 80’s. Just like today, every team played under the same rules. Let’s take one year in example, 1987, where the Skins roster was 19th for average salary that season (http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-1360126.html) You say it was wide knowledge that the Redskins had a larger budget that other teams….citing the Eagles as an example of who we outspent…


the redskins added a starting qb as a backup that season, and had recently added a former 1stround pick running back as a backup from the u.s.f.l draft and added a highly touted wr from there as well, all in seasons leading up to that 87 team. do you a lot of teams in the league were able to pay what the Washington redskins were paying Kelvin bryant, for example, to BACK UP in their team? you do realize that the redskins, along with the niners, had the reputations as the biggest spending teams during that era?


It appears that you conveniently forget about Eddie DeBartolo Jr., owner of the 49ers…..he spent a lot of money on his team/organization as evidenced by this paragraph http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/sport ... wanted=all


yes, everybody knows both the redskins AND 49ers were loose with their money for their players back then.

(parenthetically speaking, it's what got both organizations in trouble during the onset of the salary cap in the early/mid 90s... successful teams with aging players who were being paid a lot and then...bam.....now theres a limit on player salary imposed. most redskins don't recognize the good.....yes GOOD job norv turner did as coach at the beginning with washington considering the impossible situation he was in and how the cap itself was a factor...obviously not the only one....but a contributor to Gibbs retiring the first time.)

it's not convenient that I didn't mention Eddie debartalo or the maras or George young or don Shula or the Oakland raiders or Kermit the frog.

I CAN'T cover everything about everyone, this is long enough. you want me to acknowledge every little possible relatable point involving people not named Joe Gibbs, I'll be here until you're 130 years old. I don't wanna do that to you anymore than I've already done.

This “level playing field” argument is baseless as well. Each team has always played under the same set of league rules.


go ask Kansas city royal fans that one. get back to me when 5% of them agree with you. I'll wait.


The argument of who the Redskins beat in the playoffs back in the 80’s is also a meaningless point as we did not pick our opponents


according to you, it is. fortunately for justice's sake, you don't get the only vote.



look at what you wrote. just look at it! "who the redskins beat in the playoffs is meaningless BECAUSE we did not pick our opponents"

the cause and effect of that statement is NoT predicated on if the redskins chose their opponents.

the bottom line stands that the other top teams of that era (multiple titles) were the ny giants and the sf 49ers, and the redskins were not tested against the best teams when they won their 3 titles.

the giants were. and won.
the 49ers had. and won.


Gibbs had his chance against the best.....parcells and Walsh. and he was flat out TERRIBLE. The numbers don't lie, it's not even close.


Maybe Walsh and Parcells are overrated because their teams lost to inferior competition many times,


the 3 coaches all had similar successes and occasional let downs...except when the other two went up against gibbs that is, where they seemed to own him and his

Walsh was one and done for 3 straight seasons from 85 – 87.

point? that's a better stretch than 88-90, which included a losing record and two missed playoffs altogether. we could do this all night.


Also, Gibbs took his teams to more playoff games than either Walsh or parcells


of course he did, he coched longer. c'mon dude.


and had a higher playoff winning percentage than Parcells…..would have had a higher percentage than Walsh as well if we take out his second stint as a Redskin head coach and compare his record in the 80’s only.


again......back to the point at hand.......the redskins were playing the freaking Atlanta falcons and teams like the Detroit lions and the Minnesota Vikings in championship games.

parcells didn't have this lollipop ride to his 2 super bowl titles. he had to go through the best teams....those redskins...which he shutout and destroyed.....and those back to back championship niners.


Finally, Gibbs HAS been judged, and found worthy, by the HOF voters.


back to my point, again, this is why he's eligible for this topic. I'm ot trying to take him out of the hall of fame. I'm just saying maybe his accomplishments aren't as legendary when really scrutinated.

he couldn't beat parcells. he fared poorly with Walsh. his super bowls were aided by fortunate down years of the usual powers and league upheaval during two of the three super bowls where strength of organization was more important than overcoming the best competition in January.

Jimmy Jonson for example , to name one, didn't have it that easy.



So….if you want to debate as to which coach was BETTER,


well, parcells for one owns Gibbs.
And....yes....I was bored at work today.....


I am everyday.

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Postby BigRedskinDaddy » Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:06 pm

UH-huh...

I will grace this lunacy with this post and nothing more. I am not the most troll-sensitive cat on the interwebz, but all I had to do was eyeball the thread title and I needed to read no more.

Oh, and just to stay on point (if the OP actually had one): NO, JG is not the most overrated coach of all time. If anything he's underrated. He won THREE Lombardi's with THREE very different squads. The one key ingredient in them all: his consummate ability to gameplan to his team's strengths and minimize opponents' opportunities to exploit their weaknesses, if they had any. There's a reason he's the only HC in history - and almost certainly always will be - to win 3 Super Bowls with 3 different starting QB's.

It's because the man could flat out coach.
Here endeth the lesson. Thanks for playing. We've got some lovely parting gifts for you in the green room -


EDIT: To 'the poster.' Your style reads very much like a good friend of mine on another site; your approach is to try to deconstruct the post you are responding to in something like a classical verbal debate, where both sides discuss talking points in fine detail.


...Oldfan, is that you?
<shakes head>
Nah...couldn't be...
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Postby BigRedskinDaddy » Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:13 pm

cowboykillerzRED wrote:I didn't read a word.. have no idea who posted it and don't care.. move to smack please mods.
Cuz my next post will kill this b85'&



Awesome, RED. I read that and it was like I was watching a Dirty Harry movie or something. "Do you feel lucky punk?"

Same kind of thing. I bet you were squinting a little as you typed it too. 8)
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Postby cowboykillerzRGiii » Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:47 am

I still am squinting at this baby of a girl prick.... He say......... I say . Shee say he gay, and I still wonder is this a faaaan... Is this a shemannn.


Yup. F her
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Postby langleyparkjoe » Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:25 am

BigRedskinDaddy wrote:JG is not the most overrated coach of all time. If anything he's underrated. He won THREE Lombardi's with THREE very different squads.... There's a reason he's the only HC in history - and almost certainly always will be - to win 3 Super Bowls with 3 different starting QB's.


:!:

Staff, remember that "Reputation Button" I recommended being added, this would be the best example of how it would be used.

BRD, I don't even think anyone should respond to this thread because when I 1st read the title, my mind flashed immediately to what I just quoted from you.

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