The Running Backs

Talk about the Washington Redskins here. Do you bleed burgundy and gold?
CKRGiii
Posts: 4677
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:56 pm
Location: 505 New Mexico repn

Postby cowboykillerzRGiii » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:34 pm

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:
ATX_Skins wrote:Helu is the more shifty of the two. Royster runs hard north to south. IMO of course.


I know the sample size isn't that big, but Royster did have a much higher ypc than Helu.

I would prefer Royster on the field in two back sets or other run heavy situations and Helu on the field in one back sets and on passing downs.

I want Hightower, if he makes the team, on the field as little as possible.


Yep, Royster was averaging 5+ YPC in his last two games.

But...

It is also said that the o-line had finally started to gel after being in a constant state of flux all season. It could be argued that Royster had a group blocking for him that was more cohesive and effective.

Helu also had that amazing run for a TD... It's been a while since we've seen a RB break anything for a healthy run + TD. We definitely need a larger sample size. But will we get it? I doubt it. We appear to be a RB by committee team, and thats the way of the NFL nowadays.


I'm sorry but 5+ doesn't do justice at all to 5.9. He had over one hundred every start. Be it three games but still, point me to the last skin that came close? Royster is the leading rusher of all time @ Penn state for a reason. He's not a chump. I love Helu and we are pretty stacked at rb for cheap but don't discount Evan at all.

Red who did Helu start against I couldn't find it?

Good thread- probably a spawn of the off topic ramble I started in the awards thread, my baaaaad
#21 forever in our hearts
...and yet ANOTHER record setting performance by "RG3 the third"!!!!
“I wanted to just… put his lights out ….because, you know, …Dallas sucks…” - Dexter Manley

Hog
Posts: 389
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:21 am

Postby the poster » Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:32 pm

neither one is very big, there's no Adrian foster on this roster. it would be nice if they had a guy like foster....a blue chipper.....in the backfield.

but in today's NFL, you don't have to have a star back there if your passing game is top notch. they can win with either guy if rg3 and company become legit.

CKRGiii
Posts: 4677
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:56 pm
Location: 505 New Mexico repn

Postby cowboykillerzRGiii » Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:46 pm

Schhhk chhhk.....
Bom.
#21 forever in our hearts
...and yet ANOTHER record setting performance by "RG3 the third"!!!!
“I wanted to just… put his lights out ….because, you know, …Dallas sucks…” - Dexter Manley

CKRGiii
Posts: 4677
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:56 pm
Location: 505 New Mexico repn

Postby cowboykillerzRGiii » Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:55 pm

Foster: 6'1" 229 4.68 40
Helu: 6" 220 4.42 40
Royster: 6"1' 222 4.56 40
Hightower: 6"1' 222 4.59 40

Your best post yet poser, but still way off. Pass game helps run and vice versa. We have plenty of Arian fosters guy
#21 forever in our hearts
...and yet ANOTHER record setting performance by "RG3 the third"!!!!
“I wanted to just… put his lights out ….because, you know, …Dallas sucks…” - Dexter Manley

Hog
User avatar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:31 pm
Location: D.C.

Postby Red_One43 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:49 pm

ATX_Skins wrote:
Red_One43 wrote:
ATX_Skins wrote:Helu is the more shifty of the two. Royster runs hard north to south. IMO of course.


I'll have to disagree with you on this one. Helu is the more north/south runner and Royster is the shifty (2:21) runner but maintains a north/south direction.

Watch the youtube video that you posted. Helu makes one move than then tries to outrun the defenders.

Royster, has wiggle in his step and makes defenders miss or gets them off balance which allows him to break tackles. He doesn't run over anyone.Helu seems to be the stronger of the to (2:00).

Watch closely as either back finishes some runs, they both tend to fall down ( :57) Helu stumbles on his own at 3:05, but doesn't fall. At 3:15, Helu goes down with just a nip of the ankle. Royster does it more often than Helu (check out other tape on Royster). They both need to work on their balance or control or something.

At seasons end, Both Helu and Royster were banged up. Royster's shoulder was in bad shape and that was after three games.

So durability and balance are questions marks in my book for Helu and Royster. Hightower is still the more complete back.

Who starts? I don't think it matters. Shanny will ride the hot hand like he did in the St. Louis game.

We need all three backs. I do like Alfred Morris to be that power guy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpFXQJdu ... re=related


If Helu is the more N to S runner, why is he always getting to the outside and Royster is always ending up in the middle of the field?

I like both guys, I just think Helu should start and then they both split time in the second half. Just my take.


Ok, our disconnect is in our definitions of a north to south runner. Your definition appears to mean a runner that runs outside. With your definition, I agree Helu is more the outside runner. The reason for that is he has the speed to get outside. Helu has 4.4 speed. Royster has 4.65 speed. He is not going to turn most corners so he turns it up field the first chance he gets. Again, with your definition. I agree that he is the more north to south runner.

My def of a north to south guy is a back who does not dance around (east west guys dance around- Randle El is an east west guy). He makes one cut and goes up field. Both Helu and Royster do that. Shanny only likes north south runners. One cut and they are up the field.

Hog
User avatar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:31 pm
Location: D.C.

Postby Red_One43 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:57 pm

cowboykillerzRED wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:
ATX_Skins wrote:Helu is the more shifty of the two. Royster runs hard north to south. IMO of course.


I know the sample size isn't that big, but Royster did have a much higher ypc than Helu.

I would prefer Royster on the field in two back sets or other run heavy situations and Helu on the field in one back sets and on passing downs.

I want Hightower, if he makes the team, on the field as little as possible.


Yep, Royster was averaging 5+ YPC in his last two games.

But...

It is also said that the o-line had finally started to gel after being in a constant state of flux all season. It could be argued that Royster had a group blocking for him that was more cohesive and effective.

Helu also had that amazing run for a TD... It's been a while since we've seen a RB break anything for a healthy run + TD. We definitely need a larger sample size. But will we get it? I doubt it. We appear to be a RB by committee team, and thats the way of the NFL nowadays.


I'm sorry but 5+ doesn't do justice at all to 5.9. He had over one hundred every start. Be it three games but still, point me to the last skin that came close? Royster is the leading rusher of all time @ Penn state for a reason. He's not a chump. I love Helu and we are pretty stacked at rb for cheap but don't discount Evan at all.

Red who did Helu start against I couldn't find it?

Good thread- probably a spawn of the off topic ramble I started in the awards thread, my baaaaad


Helu's first start was the 49ers.

CKRGiii
Posts: 4677
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:56 pm
Location: 505 New Mexico repn

Postby cowboykillerzRGiii » Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:24 am

Aaaaaannnd then?

The combine time with out pads isn't worth a lick.. it an average, where helu ran lower aswell as higher then 4.5 Royster did the same w his time. It's easy to "mess up" and screw your total time. Rgiii ran one in the 4.3~ but its an avg. Now helu may or may NOT be faster then Royster ON THE FIELD.... Bottom line is we shall see this year, when teams can game plan for either one.
#21 forever in our hearts
...and yet ANOTHER record setting performance by "RG3 the third"!!!!
“I wanted to just… put his lights out ….because, you know, …Dallas sucks…” - Dexter Manley

ch1
Posts: 3632
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:01 pm
Location: virginia beach

Postby crazyhorse1 » Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:42 am

cowboykillerzRED wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:
ATX_Skins wrote:Helu is the more shifty of the two. Royster runs hard north to south. IMO of course.


I know the sample size isn't that big, but Royster did have a much higher ypc than Helu.

I would prefer Royster on the field in two back sets or other run heavy situations and Helu on the field in one back sets and on passing downs.

I want Hightower, if he makes the team, on the field as little as possible.


Yep, Royster was averaging 5+ YPC in his last two games.

But...

It is also said that the o-line had finally started to gel after being in a constant state of flux all season. It could be argued that Royster had a group blocking for him that was more cohesive and effective.

Helu also had that amazing run for a TD... It's been a while since we've seen a RB break anything for a healthy run + TD. We definitely need a larger sample size. But will we get it? I doubt it. We appear to be a RB by committee team, and thats the way of the NFL nowadays.


I'm sorry but 5+ doesn't do justice at all to 5.9. He had over one hundred every start. Be it three games but still, point me to the last skin that came close? Royster is the leading rusher of all time @ Penn state for a reason. He's not a chump. I love Helu and we are pretty stacked at rb for cheap but don't discount Evan at all.

Red who did Helu start against I couldn't find it?

Good thread- probably a spawn of the off topic ramble I started in the awards thread, my baaaaad


I have to agree. Royster will be our leading rusher, health permitting. He's got more power than Helu, needs less of a hole, hits the line just as quick.

Hog
User avatar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:31 pm
Location: D.C.

Postby Red_One43 » Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:27 am

cowboykillerzRED wrote:Aaaaaannnd then?

The combine time with out pads isn't worth a lick.. it an average, where helu ran lower aswell as higher then 4.5 Royster did the same w his time. It's easy to "mess up" and screw your total time. Rgiii ran one in the 4.3~ but its an avg. Now helu may or may NOT be faster then Royster ON THE FIELD.... Bottom line is we shall see this year, when teams can game plan for either one.


Helu's low was 4.43 - high was 4.52 and Official time 4.40

Let's throw out 40 times and look on the football field. Are you saying that Royster is faster or as fast as Helu on the field?

I think a look at the tape says otherwise.

When it comes to reading the holes, Royster, IMO, is clearly the better back. He reads quicker and hits the holes with a burst, but in the open field Helu is faster. One upside of Helu is he has more room to grow. As he learns to read ZBS better, he will be a much more productive back. He also needs to develop some open field moves.

Based on last year, right now, Royster should start based on running the ball - don't know how he is at pass protection - A Shanny staple.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/ds ... &genpos=RB

CKRGiii
Posts: 4677
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:56 pm
Location: 505 New Mexico repn

Postby cowboykillerzRGiii » Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:37 pm

I'm not saying that either one is faster on the field.. I'm saying there isn't a glaring difference in speed that its minute at best and that Royster deserves as much praise as Helu, and has great numbers. I know as well that the game Helu played hurt, limping into the endzone, hurt his overall stats.. we have a good rb squad Hightower being the best blocker, even our rb Young is a beast.. not mentioning any of the rooks.
We got cheap wheels with a lot of tread on them is alls I'm sayin lol
#21 forever in our hearts
...and yet ANOTHER record setting performance by "RG3 the third"!!!!
“I wanted to just… put his lights out ….because, you know, …Dallas sucks…” - Dexter Manley

DarthMonk
Posts: 4489
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:58 pm

Postby DarthMonk » Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:51 pm

These are a year old and seem accurate to me:

Helu:

Stength: Roy Helu was a dominating runner against elite college competition. Roy Helu has ideal size, with very sturdy legs and abdominals to push through piles and accelerate through openings. Roy Helu nearly always takes the yardage available to him. Roy Helu has good hands. Roy Helu was among the best RB in all of his predraft leg workouts: Speed, Agility, Acceleration, Jumping.

Weakness: Roy Helu doesn't show the agility to dance around tackles, run crisp routes, or make sudden stops and starts during games. Roy Helu was rarely a part of the passing game in college. Roy Helu shows questionable upper body strength when blocking or fending off tacklers.

Development: The one guy the Redskins traded up to get in a draft full of trading downs was Roy Helu. You have to believe it is because they believe he can make an immediate contribution to the team. This seems to be an accurate assessment in terms of his running and receiving skills. He brings plenty of experience and success with him. Further, his find a hole and take it as far as it leads running style is a perfect fit for the zone blocking scheme Washingon has in place. He needs only to improve his blitz pick up and general blocking skills in order to be a star in the NFL. He can further improve his performance by adding some upper body strength to shed high tacklers and maintain blocks. His biggest obstacle will be a proven, but injury prone incumbant and a more experienced and polished Evan Royster. He will easily be the most physically gifted running back on the roster and should eventually be the starter if he works hard on his blocking. If he stays healthy, Roy Helu's running ability should make him a semi-rare 4th round star in the NFL.

Typecast Outlook Opinion: Prototype athletic fit for Shannahan offense.


Royster:

Stength: Evan Royster is a very experienced running back. Evan Royster shows good vision and determination with the ball. Evan Royster consistently put up good rushing averages against good competition. Evan Royster has an ideal build for an NFL running back. Evan Royster has been an extremely durable running back.

Weakness: Evan Royster has had an unusually high number of carries as both a high school and college running back. Evan Royster has below average running back speed, acceleration, quickness, and agility.
Development: Evan Royster has more in common with a veteran NFL running back than with the average rookie running back. He doesn't have the speed or moves of most rookie running backs, but he's racked up a lot of carries and knows what he's doing on the football field. His long history shows he always produces, regardless of athletic measurables. He should compete for a starting job right away, primarily because he's the type of runner who can handle a 35 touches per game load and he already knows what to do on the football field, whether running, blocking, or receiving. He does need to work more on his concentration when blocking. The most likely early result will be a battle for a job as the short yardage back, third down back, and special teams slot. His best chance for a roster spot is his versatility and his best chance for playing time is his reliability. What he has that most backs don't have is his vision and quick reactions to what he sees.

Typecast Outlook Opinion: Experienced and ready to play, Evan Royster is a constant positive yardage back and team player, but not a threat to create many long yardage plays.



I think Helu really knows where to press the line of scrimmage on the stretch and, combined with his improved pass pro and big play potential, will be the primary back this year.

DarthMonk
Hog Bowl III, V Champion (2011, 2013)

Hognostication Champion (2011, 2013)


Scalp 'em, Swamp 'em,
We will take 'em big score!
Read 'em, Weep 'em Touchdown,
We want heap more!

CKRGiii
Posts: 4677
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:56 pm
Location: 505 New Mexico repn

Postby cowboykillerzRGiii » Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:09 pm

A scouting report isn't quite the tell all, AFTER the rookie season... It does hit.some notes but what's the evaluations after the first NFL year?
#21 forever in our hearts
...and yet ANOTHER record setting performance by "RG3 the third"!!!!
“I wanted to just… put his lights out ….because, you know, …Dallas sucks…” - Dexter Manley

Hog
User avatar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:31 pm
Location: D.C.

Postby Red_One43 » Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:01 pm

cowboykillerzRED wrote:I'm not saying that either one is faster on the field.. I'm saying there isn't a glaring difference in speed that its minute at best and that Royster deserves as much praise as Helu, and has great numbers. I know as well that the game Helu played hurt, limping into the endzone, hurt his overall stats.. we have a good rb squad Hightower being the best blocker, even our rb Young is a beast.. not mentioning any of the rooks.
We got cheap wheels with a lot of tread on them is alls I'm sayin lol


I'm with you

Hog
User avatar
Posts: 4609
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:31 pm
Location: D.C.

Postby Red_One43 » Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:20 pm

DarthMonk wrote:These are a year old and seem accurate to me:

Helu:

Stength: Roy Helu was a dominating runner against elite college competition. Roy Helu has ideal size, with very sturdy legs and abdominals to push through piles and accelerate through openings. Roy Helu nearly always takes the yardage available to him. Roy Helu has good hands. Roy Helu was among the best RB in all of his predraft leg workouts: Speed, Agility, Acceleration, Jumping.

Weakness: Roy Helu doesn't show the agility to dance around tackles, run crisp routes, or make sudden stops and starts during games. Roy Helu was rarely a part of the passing game in college. Roy Helu shows questionable upper body strength when blocking or fending off tacklers.

Development: The one guy the Redskins traded up to get in a draft full of trading downs was Roy Helu. You have to believe it is because they believe he can make an immediate contribution to the team. This seems to be an accurate assessment in terms of his running and receiving skills. He brings plenty of experience and success with him. Further, his find a hole and take it as far as it leads running style is a perfect fit for the zone blocking scheme Washingon has in place. He needs only to improve his blitz pick up and general blocking skills in order to be a star in the NFL. He can further improve his performance by adding some upper body strength to shed high tacklers and maintain blocks. His biggest obstacle will be a proven, but injury prone incumbant and a more experienced and polished Evan Royster. He will easily be the most physically gifted running back on the roster and should eventually be the starter if he works hard on his blocking. If he stays healthy, Roy Helu's running ability should make him a semi-rare 4th round star in the NFL.

Typecast Outlook Opinion: Prototype athletic fit for Shannahan offense.


Royster:

Stength: Evan Royster is a very experienced running back. Evan Royster shows good vision and determination with the ball. Evan Royster consistently put up good rushing averages against good competition. Evan Royster has an ideal build for an NFL running back. Evan Royster has been an extremely durable running back.

Weakness: Evan Royster has had an unusually high number of carries as both a high school and college running back. Evan Royster has below average running back speed, acceleration, quickness, and agility.
Development: Evan Royster has more in common with a veteran NFL running back than with the average rookie running back. He doesn't have the speed or moves of most rookie running backs, but he's racked up a lot of carries and knows what he's doing on the football field. His long history shows he always produces, regardless of athletic measurables. He should compete for a starting job right away, primarily because he's the type of runner who can handle a 35 touches per game load and he already knows what to do on the football field, whether running, blocking, or receiving. He does need to work more on his concentration when blocking. The most likely early result will be a battle for a job as the short yardage back, third down back, and special teams slot. His best chance for a roster spot is his versatility and his best chance for playing time is his reliability. What he has that most backs don't have is his vision and quick reactions to what he sees.

Typecast Outlook Opinion: Experienced and ready to play, Evan Royster is a constant positive yardage back and team player, but not a threat to create many long yardage plays.



I think Helu really knows where to press the line of scrimmage on the stretch and, combined with his improved pass pro and big play potential, will be the primary back this year.

DarthMonk


I highlighted in yellow what I feel applied to last year. I highlighted in dark blue with what I disagree. I think that this was very good scouting report on both players.

Hog
Posts: 389
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:21 am

Postby the poster » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:41 pm

if the qb is legit, it won't matter who the rb is. if the qb is the real deal, that's all that will matter. no team with a great qb gets held back these days because their running back isn't great, too.

I'm curious to see if this qb will be able to play 16 games a year, though.

Return to Hog Wash - Washington Redskins Football