Redskin All-Time Team Poll - QB

Talk about the Washington Redskins here. Do you bleed burgundy and gold?

Who plays QB for us on our All-Time Team?

Sammy Baugh
17
46%
Sonny Jurgensen
13
35%
Joe Theismann
7
19%
 
Total votes : 37
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Postby Countertrey » Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:26 pm

skinsfan#33 wrote:
emoses14 wrote:Someone else said this already, but I vote Sonny and then we can put Sammy in as either punter or or safety and still have the benefit of him on the all time "team"

By the way, was the question ever answered whether this was a 1 player per position, all time 24 (22 + kicker and punter) or an all time 53?


That sounds like a cop out to me. Select the best guy and Slingin Sammy was the best QB. Sonny "MIGHT" have been the better pure passer, but no one can tell me he was the better QB. Would Sammy have ever sat the bench to a dead duck throwing, ex-running back masquerading as a QB? No frakin way! He would have kicked George Allen’s “donkey” until George saw the light. The fact that a HoF coach chose a much less talented QB over a more talented guy (nearing the end of his career) should tell you something.

Look I love Sonny, but he is a distant second in my heart to the Redskins best QB of all time and one of the best players in NFL history!

Think about this. If Sonny, or Montana, Marino, Peyton, or Brady had to play another position in addition to QB (let alone two more) would they still be among the best ever? Sammy could have played in this era; that I’m certain of! I can’t say the same for the other QBS I just mentioned playing in his era.


You need to read a bit about George Allen. He was a bit of a control freak. Billy Kilmer did what he was told. The play that was called was the play that he ran. Sonny would not hesitate to change plays at the line of scrimmage if he saw a mismatch.

In fact, the first time Allen benched him was in a game when Allen was wanting a run to improve the angle for a field goal. Sonny saw an opening, changed the play, resulting in a touchdown. No matter... wasn't the play that was called.

Allen was all about eating the clock, and keeping the opponent's team on the field. Sonny was about scoring touchdowns. It was a classic clash of philosophies. Allen was a bit of a tyrant... yes, he would have benched Baugh, Unitas, Tittle, Montana, or any of the Mannings. A temper tantrum would have resulted in being traded... even Baugh... for a few more retread defensive linemen...

Your argument is a red herring. Baugh was the best Redskin of history, by a long shot... but he was not the best Quarterback.
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Postby rskin72 » Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:08 pm

Countertrey wrote:I said it in 1971... and will say it now. "I follow the Redskins, and I like Sonny" (who here gets that referrence?)


Nice write up CT. WRT reference above, i vaguely recalled this....but the Blog entry by Mike Keys refreshed the memory.....though i was fairly young when sonny and billy were the dueling qb's that we had....

http://www.thehogs.net/blogs/2009/12/19 ... -memories/
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Postby skinsfan#33 » Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:38 pm

Countertrey wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:
emoses14 wrote:Someone else said this already, but I vote Sonny and then we can put Sammy in as either punter or or safety and still have the benefit of him on the all time "team"

By the way, was the question ever answered whether this was a 1 player per position, all time 24 (22 + kicker and punter) or an all time 53?


That sounds like a cop out to me. Select the best guy and Slingin Sammy was the best QB. Sonny "MIGHT" have been the better pure passer, but no one can tell me he was the better QB. Would Sammy have ever sat the bench to a dead duck throwing, ex-running back masquerading as a QB? No frakin way! He would have kicked George Allen’s “donkey” until George saw the light. The fact that a HoF coach chose a much less talented QB over a more talented guy (nearing the end of his career) should tell you something.

Look I love Sonny, but he is a distant second in my heart to the Redskins best QB of all time and one of the best players in NFL history!

Think about this. If Sonny, or Montana, Marino, Peyton, or Brady had to play another position in addition to QB (let alone two more) would they still be among the best ever? Sammy could have played in this era; that I’m certain of! I can’t say the same for the other QBS I just mentioned playing in his era.


You need to read a bit about George Allen. He was a bit of a control freak. Billy Kilmer did what he was told. The play that was called was the play that he ran. Sonny would not hesitate to change plays at the line of scrimmage if he saw a mismatch.

In fact, the first time Allen benched him was in a game when Allen was wanting a run to improve the angle for a field goal. Sonny saw an opening, changed the play, resulting in a touchdown. No matter... wasn't the play that was called.

Allen was all about eating the clock, and keeping the opponent's team on the field. Sonny was about scoring touchdowns. It was a classic clash of philosophies. Allen was a bit of a tyrant... yes, he would have benched Baugh, Unitas, Tittle, Montana, or any of the Mannings. A temper tantrum would have resulted in being traded... even Baugh... for a few more retread defensive linemen...

Your argument is a red herring. Baugh was the best Redskin of history, by a long shot... but he was not the best Quarterback.


No Red herring, not trying to mislead anyone. My point about Allen was not about one game it was about Allen's crazy notion that Billy was better. He (GA) preferred Kilmer to Sonny.

I watched the GA Redskins (i was really young but I still watched him) and have often heard Sonny talk about Allen preferring to go with Kilmer.

Again I'm not talking about a benching, I'm talking about a HoF coach thinking Billy freaking Kilmer was better than Sonny. Yes, Allen was crazy for thinking that and yes Sonny was nearing the sendof his career, but Sammy wouldn't have stood for it.
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Postby skinsfan#33 » Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:39 pm

Countertrey wrote:
skinsfan#33 wrote:
emoses14 wrote:Someone else said this already, but I vote Sonny and then we can put Sammy in as either punter or or safety and still have the benefit of him on the all time "team"

By the way, was the question ever answered whether this was a 1 player per position, all time 24 (22 + kicker and punter) or an all time 53?


That sounds like a cop out to me. Select the best guy and Slingin Sammy was the best QB. Sonny "MIGHT" have been the better pure passer, but no one can tell me he was the better QB. Would Sammy have ever sat the bench to a dead duck throwing, ex-running back masquerading as a QB? No frakin way! He would have kicked George Allen’s “donkey” until George saw the light. The fact that a HoF coach chose a much less talented QB over a more talented guy (nearing the end of his career) should tell you something.

Look I love Sonny, but he is a distant second in my heart to the Redskins best QB of all time and one of the best players in NFL history!

Think about this. If Sonny, or Montana, Marino, Peyton, or Brady had to play another position in addition to QB (let alone two more) would they still be among the best ever? Sammy could have played in this era; that I’m certain of! I can’t say the same for the other QBS I just mentioned playing in his era.


You need to read a bit about George Allen. He was a bit of a control freak. Billy Kilmer did what he was told. The play that was called was the play that he ran. Sonny would not hesitate to change plays at the line of scrimmage if he saw a mismatch.

In fact, the first time Allen benched him was in a game when Allen was wanting a run to improve the angle for a field goal. Sonny saw an opening, changed the play, resulting in a touchdown. No matter... wasn't the play that was called.

Allen was all about eating the clock, and keeping the opponent's team on the field. Sonny was about scoring touchdowns. It was a classic clash of philosophies. Allen was a bit of a tyrant... yes, he would have benched Baugh, Unitas, Tittle, Montana, or any of the Mannings. A temper tantrum would have resulted in being traded... even Baugh... for a few more retread defensive linemen...

Your argument is a red herring. Baugh was the best Redskin of history, by a long shot... but he was not the best Quarterback.


No Red herring, not trying to mislead anyone. My point about Allen was not about one game it was about Allen's crazy notion that Billy was better. He (GA) preferred Kilmer to Sonny.

I watched the GA Redskins (i was really young but I still watched him) and have often heard Sonny talk about Allen preferring to go with Kilmer.

Again I'm not talking about a benching, I'm talking about a HoF coach thinking Billy freaking Kilmer was better than Sonny. Yes, Allen was crazy for thinking that and yes Sonny was nearing the sendof his career, but Sammy wouldn't have stood for it.
"Dovie'andi se tovya sagain"
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RIP James Oliver Rigney, Jr. 1948-2007

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Postby Countertrey » Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:42 pm

Sammy would have been traded. Allen would not brook dissent.

He preferred Kilmer, not because he thought he was better... but because he was good enough... and did what he was told... didn't go scoring touchdowns when he was told to set up a field goal... dag nabit. I need some milk...
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Postby yupchagee » Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:46 pm

SouthLondonRedskin wrote:OK, I have to admit I'm struggling here.

The best Redskin QB I've seen in my lifetime was Joe, but I'm very aware that in the list of all-time QBs we'll always have two right up there on that list, and Joe isn't one of them.

That means history judges Sammy and Sonny as being in that top class, and so I believe in a team of the greatest ever Redskins the nod should go to one of them.

So I've decided to go with the 'experts' on this, impartial where possible.

Here's what I've found in other polls on the web of the best ever QBs;

Squidoo.com had Baugh at #4 and Sonny at #16.

Bleacher (Marcel) had neither in his all time Top 10.

Bleacher (Whigster) had neither in his all time Top 10 (but Kurt Warner at #7!!!)

Bleacher (Nagler) had Baugh at #5 in his Top 10 of all time.

Fox Sports (Whitlock) had neither in his top 10 of all time.

CBS (Clark Judge) has Baugh at #6 in his Top 10 but no Sonny.

LockerSmash has Baugh at #5 in their all time Top 11.

Ranker.com has Baugh at #7 and Sonny at #22.

Mens Fitness (?!?) has neither in their Top 10.

And so it continues....

So I'm going to vote according to how the so-called experts and go with Sammy Baugh on the basis that he seems to be the one Redskin QB that has made the greatest impression on the impartial NFL lovers out there.



Baugh should be #1 on everyone's list!
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Postby Redskin in Canada » Fri Jul 06, 2012 9:32 pm

skinsfan#33 wrote:Sonny "MIGHT" have been the better pure passer, but no one can tell me he was the better QB.

That's my point and I like the "MIGHT" because I do not feel that it is a foregone conclusion either.

By the way, I did watch Sonny play at the end of his career, and I watched all of Joe's career.

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Postby HarleyHog » Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:59 pm

SONNY was probably the best passer, but that doesn't encompass the entire scope of a QB's function. The function is to lead the team to victories and championships. Sammy Baugh joined the Redskins in 1937 as a rookie from Texas Christian University and led them to a national title. This was the same year the Redskins moved from Boston to Washington. New City, Rookie QB, Championship! How can you be any better?

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Postby HarleyHog » Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:59 pm

SONNY also lived across the street from my gradeschool in Mt Vernon. still gotta go with Sammy
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Postby DarthMonk » Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:49 pm

Just bringing this too the top to encourage one more week of voting.

In response to some other questions ...

I will make this a 53-man roster.

We will have 2 at all positions (starter and backup) except we will have 3 RB, 2 TE, and 4 WR. This allows for all the sets we've run over the years.

That makes 48. The other 5 are PK, punter, long snapper, KR, and PR.

We will also choose a coach, a GM, and an owner.

I'll try to come to a consensus top 3 at each position before polling (top 5 at RB, top 4 at TE, and top 6 at WR).

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Postby Deadskins » Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:56 pm

DarthMonk wrote:Just bringing this too the top to encourage one more week of voting.

In response to some other questions ...

I will make this a 53-man roster.

We will have 2 at all positions (starter and backup) except we will have 3 RB, 2 TE, and 4 WR. This allows for all the sets we've run over the years.

That makes 48. The other 5 are PK, punter, long snapper, KR, and PR.

We will also choose a coach, a GM, and an owner.

I'll try to come to a consensus top 3 at each position before polling (top 5 at RB, top 4 at TE, and top 6 at WR).

DarthMonk

Suppose one player comes in at multiple positions? Will we have less than 53?
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Postby DarthMonk » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:30 pm

Deadskins wrote:
DarthMonk wrote:Just bringing this too the top to encourage one more week of voting.

In response to some other questions ...

I will make this a 53-man roster.

We will have 2 at all positions (starter and backup) except we will have 3 RB, 2 TE, and 4 WR. This allows for all the sets we've run over the years.

That makes 48. The other 5 are PK, punter, long snapper, KR, and PR.

We will also choose a coach, a GM, and an owner.

I'll try to come to a consensus top 3 at each position before polling (top 5 at RB, top 4 at TE, and top 6 at WR).

DarthMonk

Suppose one player comes in at multiple positions? Will we have less than 53?


What would you recommend?
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Postby Deadskins » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:37 pm

Don't know but I cout very well see Baugh ending up at punter, and maybe safety. And a WR or DB ending up as our return guy.
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Postby welch » Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:45 pm

1. Crazy George Allen's opinions about QB have no weight. George hated offense and feared using the pass.

2. George's game plan: kick deep, go on defense, take the ball away, kick a FG or run back an interception.

3. George had the offensive coordinator, whether Ted Marchibroda or Joe Walton, call the safest running plays. Larry Brown left, Larry Brown right, screen pass to Larry.

4. We sometimes cheered when the Redskins fell behind, because then George would have to let Kilmer throw to Charley Taylor, Roy Jefferson, or Jerry Smith. In the tired debate about whether Smith belongs in the HoF, note that Smith's receptions dropped off when Old George took over, because George wouldn't throw to Smith except down close...high percentage of TDs.

5. Sonny might call any play at any time. He had a feel for the opponent, and kept them off balance. He would throw a 20-yard down&out to Jerry Smith just as confidently as he would to Charley Taylor.

6. I'm a Redskin Fan and I Like(d) Sonny. Was that People's Drugstore?

7. Kilmer had to wind up to throw. Sometimes he lost his grip and threw a flapping duck. Sometimes he could drill a pass. We never knew in advance.

8. Sonny was the best passer of his time...say, 1960 - 1974. He was the same age as Bart Starr, John Brodie, and Johnny Unitas, and he overlapped the last years of YA Tittle, but Sonny was in a league above theirs. That's the only way to describe it...Starr and Unitas were great QB's, but Sonny was so much better that in baseball you would be comparing some good AAA pitchers to Stephen Strassburg (or Tom Seaver).

9. How was Sonny better? The quickest release...so good that the only way people described the young Dan Marino was to say "the best since Sonny". Accurate...just perfect. Put the ball wherever he wanted. Sam Huff says that Sonny could throw a curve ball, could bend a pass around a defender. Sam saw that in practice. I remember when Sonny completed a pass behind his back. (Against the Redskins...he was with the Eagles). DE had leaped onto Sonny's left shoulder, so Sonny drilled a perfect spiral underhand and behind his back to...probably Tommy MacDonald.

10. When his arm began to weaken, meaning Sonny could only throw a perfect pass 60 or 75 yards, instead of 100, Sonny still destroyed the new zone defenses. His completion percentage went up in '72, until he snapped his achilles tendon. In '74, his last season, Sonny led an 80 yard last possession drive to beat the SB champ Dolphins, who knew he would pass on every down. Did the same against the Giants, only he came in to replace Kilmer, who was injured in about the 3rd quarter. Completed something like 17 consecutive passes to bring the Redskins from way back to win.

11. Summarize: Sonny thought quicker than any defender. He acted as quickly as he thought. He threw the ball with less effort and wind-up than anyone in football...then or now. He hit his targets. One of the plays on "Have you seen Sonny?" looks like Larry Brown is covered, then Sonny throws exactly to a spot that Brown will get to, and the throw looks almost like Sonny has reached 15 or 20 yards to hand the ball to Brown...while the defender just looks baffled.

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Postby Countertrey » Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:49 pm

Excellent, John.

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