The Griffin Touch

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Postby KazooSkinsFan » Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:49 am

fetus wrote:Iunno, maybe I'm just a Jason homer.


The O-line argument while being a valid issue isn't a defense of Jason because he played the same way whether he got time or not. He repeatedly drilled the ball into the ground in front of open receivers and held the ball too long whether it was a long or short period of time. His play improved zero when he had more time.
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Re: The Griffin Touch

Postby markshark84 » Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:56 am

crazyhorse1 wrote:
markshark84 wrote:
KazooSkinsFan wrote:Just wanted to say how sweet it is to have a QB who just throws it to receivers over and over. After the years of Jason drilling it into the ground in front of receivers and the Rex lollipops, wow. And for all you who kept arguing that Jason drilling into the ground made sense because only the receiver could catch it, though actually the receiver couldn't, I have two things to say:

1) The receiver can only catch it if you throw it in their bread basket too, and it's a lot more effective

2) :nana:

Another great thing about Giffin over both as well is his ability to make quick decisions. Like the goal line play where he turned around and a d-lineman was zeroing in and he underhand threw it straight to the back. And don't forget that he gets rid of the ball when there's nothing there and he's under pressure. He's the best QB we've had since back in the day. Not even for a rookie, he's already the best.


The JC excuse-making on this cite was unreal for close to 3 years.

At one point I felt as if there were only 2 people (myself and RayinAustin) on this cite that actually understood how BAD JC really was and how much he was setting back this franchise. Kazoo, I even recall early on a couple (not a ton but a couple) pro-JC posts from you too.....

But we are seeing what good QB play looks like now -- a QB that can actually make plays and doesn't need an all-pro at every position to look adequate. As I have said: a QB makes everyone around them look better -- it's not the other way around.


Why pick on Campbell. RG3 makes almost anyone look bad by comparison. We're not getting good play out of him; we're getting great play. Take back a couple of idiot unsportsmanlike conduct call and we're 5-1, not 3-3. Give us an adequate defense and we're 6-0 and headed for the playoffs, maybe the super bowl. We're averaging 30 points a game, for Gawd's sake, without our best receiver and a mediocre OL.


I pick on JC because he is THE perfect example of how important the QB position is and how dumb our FO was for sticking with him for so long. NEVER AGAIN.

I agree with you in that RGIII is playing GREAT; although I think that your 5-1 assessment is based on a good deal of "what ifs" and based on literally every single thing going the skins way in each scenario....
- The STL unsportsmanlike would have given us THE CHANCE of a FG TO TIE and with Cundiff, that 42 yarder was 50-50 AT BEST. On top of that, if STL had won the OT coin toss, they would have most likely scored and won in OT. Honestly, STL played a better game.
- As far as the CIN game, we have no clue whether we would have scored -- in fact the odds were grossly against us. We were on CINCY's 39 yard line with 7 seconds to go BEFORE the unsportsmanlike. So saying that we "should have won that game" is literally just insane. We were OUTPLAYED by Cincy. We shouldn't have won that game.

The fact is that you are only as good as your record. If you think your record doesn't reflect you talents or team --- win more games. Right now we are 3-3 -- regardless of how you may want to justify it.
RIP Sean Taylor. You will be missed.

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Re: The Griffin Touch

Postby markshark84 » Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:11 am

KazooSkinsFan wrote:
markshark84 wrote:Yes. I am of the opinion that you will ultimately know fairly quickly if a QB is going to be successful


That is completely not supported by history. Actually the majority of starting QB's take years to develop and are not clearly good until they learn the position. The prodigy's like Griffin are in fact the rare ones.


I understand what you are saying but perhaps I should have been more clear. I am of the opinion that you know whether a QB has the capacity to be a top QB pretty early. You can see it in the way he runs the offense, sees the field, earns respect, leads a team, throws a pass, makes plays. He may not produce all-pro numbers in that first year, but you realize that top production is inevitable moving forward.

I personally believe it was obvious within 6 games (of playing) that Rodgers, Brady, Manning, Ryan, Dalton, Griffin, Luck, Roethsburger, even Ponder were going to be top QBs. I do think there were others such as Eli, Flacco, Brees (although his potential was apparent) and Schaub that took time to develop. But all in all, with the great ones you know immediately -- and in this league you have to have a great one to consistently win and/or make the SB.
RIP Sean Taylor. You will be missed.

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Postby andyjens89 » Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:13 am

Are we really comparing the Bears' backup QB to Robert Griffin III?
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Postby KazooSkinsFan » Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:21 am

andyjens89 wrote:Are we really comparing the Bears' backup QB to Robert Griffin III?


No, no one is doing that even Jason's supporters
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Postby andyjens89 » Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:46 pm

Alright, just checking
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Postby fetus » Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:45 pm

Irn-Bru wrote:
fetus wrote:Jason was the most contacted an in the league over the time he was here and took a beating... Also the last two years he was here I'm pretty sure he was the most sclerosis and also he had pressure in his face with in 1 sec of the snap in his last two years.

I can't tell whether you're trying to make an argument with stats and facts or are just saying aloud what you remember. Because it seems to me you are misremembering the facts of the matter.


Arguably, when jansen, rabach, samuels, Thomas and dockery, or whoever was playing LG, was healthy Jason seemed to play well... But how often was that line actually healthy...

Did you do any research before writing this response? I'm guessing no, since you are wondering about something that's pretty easy to verify . . . and I don't think you're going to like what you find.

Our LGs during those years, by the way, were Derrick Dockery and Pete Kendall, both of whom were pretty good. (Remember that Dockery signed one of the biggest deals of the offseason when he left us for the Bills.)

I just don't get where this "never had a line" stuff is coming from. I suppose a Pro Bowler and multiple consistent starters doesn't count.


Jason had to live through heyer and portis being hurt for three years and samuels missing for two years and so on and so on.... Jason never had a chance

Chris Samuels was a full-time starter for all but one season. Portis played the full year in 2 of Campell's 3 starting seasons. I suspect your "and so on and so on" is code for "I don't really have anything else to say." :lol:

Look, Campell had plenty of chances. Five years on the team, three and a half seasons where he had the keys to the offense, is more than enough. We had a playoff quality defense and running game. Our offensive line was not bad. We were short on receiving weapons, but a good QB could have made it work.

We were a playoff team in those years with quality QBing. Campbell wasn't bringing that to the table, and no, it's not because he "never had a line . . . ever," which is a ridiculous thing to say.



wow didn't mean to strike a nerve.....

but any way Samuels missed the last three games of 2008 and then missed all games in 2009 starting october 11th.
Portis missed significant time through out the 2006 season after being injured in the preseason and also missed weeks 10-17 during 2009.
That should have said RG instead of LG anyway, so, sorry about Dockery
Also I'm sorry that I was wrong about campbell he is second in completion percentage, 61.2%, to brad johnson's 61.5%, of player who have more than 10 games that played QB. The actual record holder is Brandon Banks with 100%.
in 2007 we were 16th in sacks allowed in 2009 we were 8th in sacks allowed. all other years campbellw as QB we did ok but we were the least sacked team in 2006 when he was named stater but did not start the whole season.

either way, no matter what I say, I will be wrong so....

RG3!!!!
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Postby Irn-Bru » Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:25 pm

fetus wrote:wow didn't mean to strike a nerve.....

No nerve struck here. Just wasn't sure what you could have meant at first and now I'm trying to dispell the darkness of ignorance. :lol:

but any way Samuels missed the last three games of 2008 and then missed all games in 2009 starting october 11th.

Right, as I pointed out. He went to the Pro Bowl in '08, by the way. Not bad for a nonexistent line.

Portis missed significant time through out the 2006 season after being injured in the preseason and also missed weeks 10-17 during 2009.

Campbell wasn't a full time starter until our season was essentially over in 2006.

And like Samuels, I already pointed out that Portis missed this time. I appreciate you double-checking my work, but what was supposed to be your point here?


That should have said RG instead of LG anyway, so, sorry about Dockery

Well our RG during those years was Randy Thomas, who IMO was better than either Dockery or Kendall. (I thought Dockery, even though he was a solid starter, got way overpaid to go to the Bills. We got great service out of Thomas.)


either way, no matter what I say, I will be wrong so....

No, you'll be right if you say that Campbell did have an offensive line while he played here. Have you been persuaded by me on that point yet? ;)
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Postby markshark84 » Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:32 pm

fetus wrote:
Irn-Bru wrote:
fetus wrote:Jason was the most contacted an in the league over the time he was here and took a beating... Also the last two years he was here I'm pretty sure he was the most sclerosis and also he had pressure in his face with in 1 sec of the snap in his last two years.

I can't tell whether you're trying to make an argument with stats and facts or are just saying aloud what you remember. Because it seems to me you are misremembering the facts of the matter.


Arguably, when jansen, rabach, samuels, Thomas and dockery, or whoever was playing LG, was healthy Jason seemed to play well... But how often was that line actually healthy...

Did you do any research before writing this response? I'm guessing no, since you are wondering about something that's pretty easy to verify . . . and I don't think you're going to like what you find.

Our LGs during those years, by the way, were Derrick Dockery and Pete Kendall, both of whom were pretty good. (Remember that Dockery signed one of the biggest deals of the offseason when he left us for the Bills.)

I just don't get where this "never had a line" stuff is coming from. I suppose a Pro Bowler and multiple consistent starters doesn't count.


Jason had to live through heyer and portis being hurt for three years and samuels missing for two years and so on and so on.... Jason never had a chance

Chris Samuels was a full-time starter for all but one season. Portis played the full year in 2 of Campell's 3 starting seasons. I suspect your "and so on and so on" is code for "I don't really have anything else to say." :lol:

Look, Campell had plenty of chances. Five years on the team, three and a half seasons where he had the keys to the offense, is more than enough. We had a playoff quality defense and running game. Our offensive line was not bad. We were short on receiving weapons, but a good QB could have made it work.

We were a playoff team in those years with quality QBing. Campbell wasn't bringing that to the table, and no, it's not because he "never had a line . . . ever," which is a ridiculous thing to say.



wow didn't mean to strike a nerve.....

but any way Samuels missed the last three games of 2008 and then missed all games in 2009 starting october 11th.
Portis missed significant time through out the 2006 season after being injured in the preseason and also missed weeks 10-17 during 2009.
That should have said RG instead of LG anyway, so, sorry about Dockery
Also I'm sorry that I was wrong about campbell he is second in completion percentage, 61.2%, to brad johnson's 61.5%, of player who have more than 10 games that played QB. The actual record holder is Brandon Banks with 100%.
in 2007 we were 16th in sacks allowed in 2009 we were 8th in sacks allowed. all other years campbellw as QB we did ok but we were the least sacked team in 2006 when he was named stater but did not start the whole season.

either way, no matter what I say, I will be wrong so....

RG3!!!!


I agree. No matter what you say, you will be wrong -- because JC was a bad QB and there is no going around that. Nothing you will say or excuses you try to make will change that very simple fact.

Also -- don't even bring up the sacks; most of those were on JC. He sat in the pocket like a statute and held onto the ball for days. If JC was our QB right now, he would have been sacked at least 10 times in the STL game alone.

And completion % -- it should have been 80% given that is about the amount of the time he dumped the ball off to RBs or TEs after totally missing his open WRs and incorrectly going thru his progressions. At least Brad Johnson threw the ball downfield and lead us to an NFC championship. JC couldn't lead a team to the lockers.
RIP Sean Taylor. You will be missed.

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Postby fetus » Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:48 pm

too much quoting to do here so anyway
Irn-Bru no I have not been persuaded lol
and
Mark Shark I will not say taht JC was a BAD qb but I will say he wasn't great, I have never tried to argue that and never will.

I liked JC while he was here and thought he would end up here for a while, I was wrong.
I liked him when he was in Oakland and he seemed to do well there until he got hurt and Palmer came in.
Now he is a back up and O well.....
whatever happens, We aren't going to agree on anything so this is a pointless debate on both ends for us....
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Postby Irn-Bru » Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:21 pm

fetus wrote:too much quoting to do here so anyway
Irn-Bru no I have not been persuaded lol


Hmm. So you still think Campbell "never had a line" while he was here, "ever"? I just don't see what your argument is supposed to be. You'd basically have to say that Chris Samuels was overrated, Jon Jansen stunk, Randy Thomas and Rabach were FA busts, and Dockery wasn't any good. I can't even name our OL starters from 2 years ago, but I can still name our 07/08 guys. They were good.
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Re: The Griffin Touch

Postby TimSkin » Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:58 pm

emoses14 wrote:to the guy that is so worthless he couldn't hack it in the CFL and is getting arrested for drugs in Hawaii or to


I didn't know Brennan got arrested for drugs....What kind?
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Postby fetus » Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:20 am

Irn-Bru wrote:
fetus wrote:too much quoting to do here so anyway
Irn-Bru no I have not been persuaded lol


Hmm. So you still think Campbell "never had a line" while he was here, "ever"? I just don't see what your argument is supposed to be. You'd basically have to say that Chris Samuels was overrated, Jon Jansen stunk, Randy Thomas and Rabach were FA busts, and Dockery wasn't any good. I can't even name our OL starters from 2 years ago, but I can still name our 07/08 guys. They were good.


Thomas and Rabach were not free agent busts... they were decent at there position and when Thomas got hurt it sucked, probably my fav player on that line, beside Samuels. Dockery was okay in my mind but the guy just wasn't here it seemed, he was just waiting for that big contract to get him out when he hit FA.
In my mind when a guy is on his back every play or has pressure in his face a split second after every snap, I will not defend the O-line that is in front of him. That being said, Campbell was not by any means a great QB, I will never argue that, Campbell was a decent QB but I feel that he was not given enough time to throw the ball. I will agree he threw some into the ground but so did McNabb when he was here and iunno about anyone but me but, I would have much rather had Campbell here in Shanny's first season than McNabb.
Maybe I'm wrong and lets face it I was young during Campbell's years, hell I'm still young, but from what I can remember, watching the games, it seemed Jason had pressure in his face after every snap.
I will agree with you that the players we had in place on the O-line were definitely not the worst and Chris Samuels is one of the best LT in a while, just sucks that his career was cut short, but I will not agree with anyone that says Campbell had a great line in front of him and if he was better of a QB we could have went somewhere.
I don't think if we had any QB in the league at that time that our team could have done anything we hope for them to do.

but like I said, I am over it. I always like Jason and I still do, but I understand there are players that I never liked on our team that some did. It's just the name of the game, diff people, diff places, diff takes on things, diff opinoins
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Re: The Griffin Touch

Postby emoses14 » Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:15 pm

TimSkin wrote:
emoses14 wrote:to the guy that is so worthless he couldn't hack it in the CFL and is getting arrested for drugs in Hawaii or to


I didn't know Brennan got arrested for drugs....What kind?


Cocaine residue, but prosecutors declined to pursue drug possession charges. So "all" he will face charges on was the DUI arrest.
I know he got a pretty good zip on the ball. He has a quick release. . . once I seen a coupla' throws, I was just like 'Yeah, he's that dude.'"

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Re: The Griffin Touch

Postby fetus » Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:59 pm

emoses14 wrote:
TimSkin wrote:
emoses14 wrote:to the guy that is so worthless he couldn't hack it in the CFL and is getting arrested for drugs in Hawaii or to


I didn't know Brennan got arrested for drugs....What kind?


Cocaine residue, but prosecutors declined to pursue drug possession charges. So "all" he will face charges on was the DUI arrest.


Didn't Colt Brennan get really messed up in a car wreck in Hawaii like 3 years ago???
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