I just don't understand world politics...

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Postby joebagadonuts » Fri Apr 09, 2004 1:08 pm

nikih, your passion is much appreciated, despite the fact that i can't agree with you. whatever saddam was capable of, i can't accept that he was tied to bin laden, when the president's (see how i cleverly avoided the name issue?) own data has no evidence of such a connection. and as much as you are upset at the president being disrespected, i feel the same disrespect from the president for lying to me in an attempt to gain my support for a war. i'm absolutely no expert, but i would think that is there were wmd that were distroyed before we could get in there, there would be some evidence left over. at some point, if we're trying to eliminate leaders who want to attack the u.s., even if they don't have the means, then we should be attacking iran, syria, north korea, the palestinians, and a long list of others. we employ a system that claims we are 'innocent until proven guilty' but we're not willing to extend that equally to other countries? mind you, i am in no way saying that a country needs to kill 3000 americans before we should attack, but i do believe that we should have some decent evidence of their intent before we do so.

as i said before, i think we all want the same thing, peace, it's simply a matter of how that peace is attained - either by more involvement in world politics or less. it would be nice if we (as a country) could shed the republican/democrat titles and concentrate on the best possible solution to the problem, i agree dehog.

and, by the way, my wife spends all day with our 4 year old, and i value her opinion more than anyone else i know.
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Postby NC43Hog » Fri Apr 09, 2004 1:31 pm

Well said Jelly Role, I mean Joe.

I also want to point out that I a tired of anyone with a differing view from the current administrations stance as being Non-Patriotic. Dissent is deeply woven into our history and culture, it's how this country started, and rose against tyrrany.

You can suport our men in arms and their committment and still question what is going on. When we stop asking questions and just follow blindly then the true democracy we value will vanish. It's not a left or right wing issue - just simply our duty as americans.

Thump . . I just stepped off my soapbox. :lol:
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Postby joebagadonuts » Fri Apr 09, 2004 1:40 pm

well said, nc43. not only do we have the right to question what any branch of the government does, we have a responsibility to do so. otherwise, it's not a governemnt for the people and by the people [cue patriotic music]. even if we decide that what was done was the correct thing to do, we should still be examining everything.
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Postby BringThePain! » Fri Apr 09, 2004 2:06 pm

here's a little article on some of the stuff IRAQ was doing prior to this war: (just to understand a little on some of the reasons that he needed to be stopped)

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/P ... 6jmcbd.asp
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Postby DEHog » Fri Apr 09, 2004 2:13 pm

JBD would you have a different view if WMD were found?? What if I told you I've been ask by a private company to work for them to identify 1000's of Iraqis killed in chemical attack by Saddam and buried in mass graves in Iraq? Not that I have but if....
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Postby joebagadonuts » Fri Apr 09, 2004 3:35 pm

btp, a very interesting article, though i have to admit i didn't have the time to read the entire thing. one thing i've learned in following politics is that there is no such thing as a 'fact'. information that is given (by both parties-dems are just as guilty as republicans) can be skewed in such a way as to emphasize certain things, and de-emphasize others. i could tell that the article was written by two people who supported the bush administration in their war efforts, and that came through in the article. i'm not saying they were lying, they were simply putting forth an argument that supported their viewpoint. someone who is against the war may write an article listing other data that would emphasize their point of view.

that being said, i don't really have the opportunity here to get into what iraq did and did not do (in terms of the inspections, wmd, etc.) before the war. i will say that i do believe saddam to be an evil man, and i'm glad that he's not in power anymore. i guess i'm just not convinced that he posed a threat to the u.s., and that it was our responsibility to remove him from power.

i'm not ashamed to say 'i don't know how i feel' about certain parts of this whole thing. maybe that's viewed as a cowardly position to take, but i'd like to think of it as open-minded. i'm not george bush's biggest fan (in case you couldn't tell), and i'll admit that the guy could crap golden eggs and i'd still be suspicious. i realize that may skew my point of view.

if they did find wmd right where the president said we would, sure, that would change my thinking. maybe not drastically, but some. and i'm aware of what saddam has done to his own people. i even know that he had his own son-in-law killed for fear that he was growing more popular than himself. but i'm just not sure that's our business. if he has killed thousands of his own people, then the world should take notice and do something about it. again, i'm not convinced that it is our sole responsibility.

well, i have to split for the weekend, so i can't continue this. but it's been fun! thanks for the spirited argu-er, i mean debates! next week i say we tackle capitol punishment....
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Postby Texas Hog » Fri Apr 09, 2004 4:36 pm

Joe, how can you not be convinced that saddamn wasn't a threat to the US? Do you believe bin laden is or was a threat to the US?

The WMDs were used on saddam's own people and what were left over more than likely transported to Iran or Syria.

Curveball, we do control that region of the world...and would have regardless...we didn't need to have staging in Iraq to do so.
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Postby BringThePain! » Fri Apr 09, 2004 6:15 pm

No i never said you were a coward.... and I'm glad your open-minded :up: people like you are more interesting....

Yes the artical could have been written by pro-Bush people..... but it did have facts about the situation Iraq was causing and those are something the pro and anti Bush people can't deny.....

Hell, i voted for Gore.... so I'm not a pro this or anti that.... I just felt with what was going on over there the President did the right thing, in my opinion...

I understand your side of the issue also... so I can see how people could disagree.... The article wasn't to impose anything on you... just to open your eyes :)

Thanks for debating with me..... I hope next time, it's about something not so serious :)
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Postby NC43Hog » Fri Apr 09, 2004 7:11 pm

This has been a good debate everyone - free of too much ranting and raving, and full of good insiteful dialogue.

Another reason I love this board and it's varied membership.
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Postby tcwest10 » Fri Apr 09, 2004 8:49 pm

I, for one, don't really care about the how and the why. I know that there are some very brave people over there from a whole bunch of different places doing a very difficult and dangerous job.
As I see it, Iraq is a hotbed of terrorist activity. I can appreciate the view that we oughtn't do to the Iraqi people what bin Laden did to us on that dark day in September 2001. You have to start somewhere, and Hussein was a known proponent of terrorist activities. Was there some "unfinished business" in the Bush family ? Don't know, don't care. Can Dr. Rice explain away the feelings we all have about the apparent ineptitude of our government in recognizing and preventing the attacks ? Doubt it. I really believe, though, that our government (via our intelligence community and our armed forces) have quelled many, many other potential diasters. This one got past them. Were it as simple as a batting average in baseball, I'd say we're still batting .900 . That ain't half bad.
I've used this analogy before in private conversations to drive this point home.
I work in maintenance on a major highway in NYS. About a year ago, a bus carrying some 40 Hasidim to their vacation colony in Sullivan County caught fire. Three of the passengers were overcome by the smoke and perished. The reamining passengers were waiting calmly on the road shoulder waiting for EMS and the local fire department to arrive. We got there first, and closed the lane to divert traffic around the scene.
A co-worker asked how the survivors could appear so calm and organzied in the face of this tragedy. One of the Hasidic elders told him, "We're from Isreal. We've seen this sort of thing before on a much larger scale. When we survey the scene, we are more thankful for those who lived than remorseful for those who died. One can only view so much tragedy in life before becoming numb to it." Is that attitude one of resignation or one of bravery ? That's for you to decide on your own. For me, it's a combination of both. They accept what has happened, and tend to those who've lived. That's what I think we're doing right now, in Iraq.
Since we as Americans are generally unaccustomed to the sort of attacks on our way of life that we saw on September 11th, 2001, we take it much more personally. I know I do, and I don't really care about how and why. All I care about is living my life the way I always have, and I'm very thankful for those brave men and women who are over there trying to help us maintain our batting average, and trying to ensure that my children can live as freely as I have.
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Postby NC43Hog » Fri Apr 09, 2004 9:50 pm

TC - :hmm:

I care about the how and why, I care a lot!
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Postby skinz74 » Fri Apr 09, 2004 10:36 pm

I might take some flack for this, but only absorb this if it applies to you, and let if roll over your back if it doesn't. I've been in 2 branches of the military for a combination of 12 years...long enough to have participated in SEVERAL operatons and 3 wars. During the peak of the war...almost every american is glued to the news watching what is going on, putting yellow ribbons on their trees, wearing patriotic t-shirts, buying up every US flag they can get their hands on. But as the war drags on, 2 dead begats 20 begats 200, yada yada yada...people begin to question things that A: they have no need to know because of military intelligence, and B: and their doubt in our efforts brings down morale. Now don't get me wrong, I understand that the public has a right to know certain things about operations, but being former recon, I can say that I really don't care for CNN broadcasting ALL OVER THE WORLD that the 3 Infantry, 3/4 Cav division just crossed such and such border. TMI!!!!! Morale of the story is war is hell, good people (and bad) die, and sometimes you just have to trust that your government is doing the right thing, for the safety of the troops. Sidebar, I also wish that psuedo-patriotism would carry on over to into real Patriotism. Right after the war, dealerships offer deals to veterans, hotels drop rates, yada yada yada...we appreciate these things, but a simple thanx year-round would be better. To rehash, if your patriotic and none of this applies to you, then just view this as me venting over years of things I've noticed. But, if you find yourself falling into a few of these categories, think for a moment that at this very moment a sailor/soldier/airman/marine/coastie has probably risked his life that day in a foreign land for THEIR freedom...which helps keep us free. I apologize for this being so long, and hope I did not offend. Just some things I needed to get off my chest...saddened by the increasingly decent of importance of our armed forces dying in the media. My 2 cents
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Postby skinsfaninroanoke » Sat Apr 10, 2004 2:17 am

I have some facts that may or may not change your minds, but I would like to present them if I might...

Fact: there were chemical weapons used and documented during the Iran Iraq war - and they were used by Iraq.

Fact: there were chemical and bio weapons used against the Kurds... I have seen the pics with my own eyes as part of the Army training for chemical warfare. When we were getting ready to train in the use of chemical suits, the Army showed pics from Iraqs Kurdish region, and the pictures were shown to explain what happens to little Joe soldier if you don't get that suit on in a hurry. Mind you - this was 1988, when we weren't against the Iraqis.

Fact: There were documented WMD by the UN, some of which were recorded as destroyed. There are actual records and pictures showing destruction, but there were tons unaccounted for.

Fact: Hussein didn't allow inspectors in or give them full run of the place, not even at the end. He stalled for months and that, folks, is more than enough time to transport or destroy what was there.

Fact: There are also mass graves of tens of thousands of bodies found in Iraq, sites that have been identified by locals as dumping grounds for government executed people.

Fact: Hussein came to power through violence. He continued with violence through his whole regime, killing off any threat to his power, including ravaging the Kurds to the north with the aforementioned WMD, wiping out entire villages. There are photos of hundreds of dead proving it and they were killed by WMD. Trust me - 16 years later and I still remember the twisted bodies and the effects the WMD agents had on them - and it was horrid.

Fact: The UN had to admit that there were rockets that Iraq had that could now reach portions of Europe, souped up far beyond the self defense rockets allowed by the resolutions. These posed a threat not necessarily to the US (although in time he might have improved on that) but to our NATO allies in Turkey and Italy.

Fact: there were prisons all over that country with dark ages type of torture devices.

Fact: there was an entire prison that contained nothing but children

If you add all this up, and the fact that maybe the President got bad intel, which has happened to every President (for the people who don't remember - reference the Bay of Pigs and the total lack of intel that sent a lot of men to their deaths - or Jimmy Carter's fiasco in Iran - or Kennedy's starting to send troops to aid France in Vietnam or Truman being told the Chicoms will NEVER cross the border to help North Korea) that maybe, just maybe, he believed in the WMD and that the man was evil and needed to be pacified.

Keep in mind that there were terrorist strongholds rooted out in the north of Iraq, that there is proof of oil vouchers going to 270 different countries and organizations including Hammas, Hesbollah and others. These vouchers are good for the sale of oil, and millions of them were given out. Take a look here - scan the names well - look under Palestine particularly... but not there alone... http://www.brookesnews.com/040202saddamsbribes.html

That my friends is a link that IS established and uncovered by the Iraqis going through the paperwork left behind at the oil ministry. The corruption has extended to France, Germany, Russia and the UN.. funny to think that those are the people who fought so hard to keep this war from happening. They went to people who funded anti war rallies, including one member of the house of Lords (I think - might have been the commons) in England - the one who was so vocal against Major.

Three other things to think about... this may have been nothing but posturing to show the world what we are capable of when threatened but -

1. Libya is now participating in a nuclear/bio/chemical inspection which up until 2 years ago Khadafy threatened inspectors with death.

2. North Korea came to the negotiating table almost as soon as we entered Baghdad.

3. Pakistan and India quit brandishing their nukes at each other.


Those three facts, my fellow Hogmembers are worth this war. Insofar as world stability goes, this is a much safer place without Saddam weilding his billions to cause dissent and disorder.

The President freed 50 million in Afghanistan and Iraq and has so far captured or killed 75% of the known Al Qaeda network. The prior President just wrote an editorial saying we screwed up in the situation in Africa with the genocide saying that we should have gone in there to stop it. What makes it less important to stop it in the middle east?

When I see pics of the 9/11 disaster and then you see a pic of the fuselage of the same style of plane found in a training facility in Iraq, what more do we need?

I have fought, bled and watched my friends die in combat. It sucks, and my nightmares are haunted by it. I still can't sleep sometimes for it (look at the time of this post - often when I post this late I am waking up from the dreams). I can guarantee you, I wouldn't have changed one second of time that I was in though. Not one second.

Keep the faith folks - keep the faith.
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Postby skinsfaninroanoke » Sat Apr 10, 2004 3:05 am

Other interesting documents:

http://www.fas.org/irp/gulf/cia/960702/72566_01.htm

The next one is by a humanitarian organization and is rather astonishing, but if you want to see it for yourselves - this is where to prove it with your own eyes - note - this is dated 1995 - 3 years after the first resolutions.
Look at the aftermath and go to some of the other links to read more.

http://www.phrusa.org/research/chemical_weapons/photos.html

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FA0B16F9385E0C728EDDAD0894DB404482

Bill Clinton's last Patterns of Terrorism report from the State Dept. ... seven paragraphs down - Iraq continued to support terrorism

http://www.state.gov/www/global/terrorism/1999report/mideast.html

Think the world is safe? From the 2000 report by the State Dept on Patterns of Global Terrorism - backgrounds on every terrorist group out there - long list to read unfortunately - most of 'em hate the West and all we stand for

http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/pgtrpt/2000/2450.htm

Well, that's it for me right now, but if I wake back up later I will find some more for y'all :)

don't worry - these are all public docs.. nothing classified :)
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Postby Skinsfan55 » Sat Apr 10, 2004 9:32 am

NC43Hog wrote:I also want to point out that I a tired of anyone with a differing view from the current administrations stance as being Non-Patriotic. Dissent is deeply woven into our history and culture, it's how this country started, and rose against tyrrany.


I love this statement, I have always hated the phrase "unamerican". We're all Americans and if someone has an opinion that differs from the norm, then they are an American trying to change what being an American means. Even theories from the Montana Militia or statements from domestic terrorists are trying to do what's best for America, even if we don't agree on the means.

Anyway, I'm sorry I let this post slide and had to read all of this at one time. I would like to say that I support the troops but not that cause. My best friend Chris joined the National Guard after high school thinking that he would be safe at home doing community service while getting paid for college and his life after school... Well, his battalion (which had not been used since the revolutionary war, one of their biggest recruiting strategies) was activated and he was trained to become a military policeman and how to become a prison guard/military escort/patrolman (his previous training was in field artiliery, another big 'selling point' for this battalion, if you're manning a howitzer, you're not up close to the action...) so there he is out in Iraq riding on the back of a Hummer, manning the a heavy machine fixed to the top, guarding prisons and doing all of this for 12 hours at a time. So I obviously support the troops, I hope they all come home safe, but I don't agree with being over there.

Saddam Hussein was harmless to us. That might be tough to hear, but it's true. Hussein would never, ever, ever have used WMD's on anyone wheather he had them or not... How do I know this? He was in a position of absolute power, giving up his country by attacking the US or anyone else for that matter would have been extremely stupid. We would have done exactly what we have done, take his country, his power and his personal freedom.

Douglas McArthur once said "It is a law of nature, common to all mankind, which time shall neither annul nor destroy, that those who have greater strength and power shall bear rule over those who have less." that is one of my all time favorite quotes. Saddam Hussein was like that, and he used his power to keep religious factions down in Iraq. We went in because we have more power than Iraq and we took out their leader and now it's our job to keep down religious factions... You know all those clerics and stuff that keep popping up and raising armies? Yeah, Saddam might have been a son of a bitch but he was damned good at keeping those guys down, and as you have already seen, the are very, very dangerous. General McArtur's quote is so true, because of the arrogance every culture has in thinking that their culture is the best. How crappy would a world where everyone believed in the same religiou and followed the same form of government be? Very... it would be mindnumbingly boring. Instead we're afraid to let anyone who doesn't like us get power! That's a HUGE catch-22! Do they not like us because we keep them down, or do we keep them down because they don't like us?

Well, I could write a lot more... but I have to save SOME for my Religion and Politics paper :x
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