I just don't understand world politics...

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Postby DEHog » Sat Apr 10, 2004 10:02 am

Saddam Hussein was harmless to us. That might be tough to hear, but it's true. Hussein would never, ever, ever have used WMD's on anyone wheather he had them or not... How do I know this? He was in a position of absolute power, giving up his country by attacking the US or anyone else for that matter would have been extremely stupid. We would have done exactly what we have done, take his country, his power and his personal freedom.



55... was begining to wonder why you started this topic and left the romm :lol:
Anyhow...I totally respect your opinions, however I could't disagree more with the above statement. Saddam had and used WMD on his own people...I know this first hand!! He did attack someone else...Kuwait. This is a job that sould have been finished 12 years ago. The fact that he stood up to us and remained in power made him a victor in the first gulf war in the eyes of many. 74 is right on the public doesn't see and shoudn't see thr results of war...I see it daily, this week in particular has been a rough one. Thanks for supporting the troops while opposing the cause...I can respect that.
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Postby skinsfaninroanoke » Sat Apr 10, 2004 10:10 am

Skinsfan55 - I provided proof, written and photographic proof that the man did use them.
He not only used them against Iran, but against a political enemy in his own country - the Kurds.

Anyone who joins the Reserves or National Guard and thinks there isn't a possibility that they will ever be called up (especially when, like here in VA - the Nat'l Guard is tied directly to the 82nd Airborne in support) is being intellectually dishonest. Basically he was, according to you, looking for a free ride at taxpayers expense serving a few weeks out of the year in something he didn't take seriously. That is the interpretation I take from this.

My fellow Hogbrother - if you think that the MILITANT (note I am not generalizing the entire group or religion) Muslims would let us have our own religion if it was THEIR choice - that is not being honest with yourself. Your sport of choice - nope. Too violent. Your cheerleaders? Oh hell no. What you wanted to eat, drink, read, listen to, watch? Oh please. Political parties? Forget it.

Don't believe me? How many free countries are there in the middle east? How many people can truly choose their own destinies? Not many.

I don't know what to say to convince you other than the truth I have seen, read about in multitudes of papers, and visited in my military career. The truth is - the man was a destabilizing factor in the region, a mass murderer, invaded two different countries causing tens of thousands of casualties, used WMD (proven) and supported terrorism.

Did you even look at any of the links I provided, including ones that linked to information provided by the Clinton administration if you are so dead set against Bush and the Republicans?

Some of the armies being raised are already being proven to be supported by outside forces from Syria, Jordan, Iran and Lebanon. The majority of the people of Iraq appreciate us, and the images shown to us of people waving to the troops, including kids, shows us that. The Sunni triangle, the power base for Saddam, is where most of the trouble is coming from, and a lot of what just happened was very planned.

The press in the area was tipped off, the people were agitated (notice how most of the people who participated just happened to KNOW where the action was going to take place) and there was armaments no simple street rebel could have had.

I understand the emotional issues. Every war has had them. I would love to continue to discuss this with you, but unless you are willing to confront data with data, it seems pointless to me to do so. Intellectual emotionalism and dishonesty is never overcome by logic and proof unless the person is willing to hear the facts as they are instead of coloring them with fear and anger.

As far as domestic terrorists - do you mean people like McVeigh who in his "statement" killed all those people? Just curious.
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Postby Skinsfan55 » Sat Apr 10, 2004 10:46 am

SFIR, I think I painted the picture wrong. Even though the National Guard sells itself on the very principle that you get a free ride only serving a few weeks a year... that is not why he signed up. His father was a soldier in the Korean War (yes, he's an old dude) and he worked Ordinance, not that this isn't an important job, but I don't believe he ever had to raise a weapon against anyone during his time stationed in... Germany. So his father convinced him what a great plan it would be to join the armed services and serve his country while making extra money for him to buy his first house and start a family with after school...

So he joined up with his father's prodding but he was very proud to wear the uniform, he liked the military way and he enjoyed going to drill weekends and he tried to hone his skill on his rifle whenever possible. Of course no one who joins the reserves anticipates being used, that's why they joined the reserves, or the National Guard because they expect to help their community differently than being embattled in armed conflict. So my friend Chris was taken out of his specialty, Field Artiliery, and put into close up fighting resembling Infantry. For the record, I have never, EVER heard him complain about any of this, everything I stated was from my perspective.

Also, when you said: "if you think that the MILITANT (note I am not generalizing the entire group or religion) Muslims would let us have our own religion if it was THEIR choice - that is not being honest with yourself. Your sport of choice - nope." I totally agree, they wouldn't... nor are we... but we should, I mean we all have different values and beliefs and why are we all trying to deny each other our rights to practice our own religions, beliefs and enact our on policies? Because "It is a law of nature, common to all mankind, which time shall neither annul nor destroy, that those who have greater strength and power shall bear rule over those who have less." I totally agree with this statement, but I just wish it wasn't so.

I can see from your links and facts that Saddam Hussein used weapons in the past, and he had them to keep his power. But he would have never turned them on us, or any of our allies. We hate the think this, but he did an important job for us in Iraq, he kept things stable. He used horrible methods and I'm sure the results were gruesome, but how much better are things without him and dozens of Iraqi clerics in place?

The difference between cultures that have a oral tradition (Islam and others) and cultures that have a written tradition (the West, us) is that oral cultures have a long, long memory. One of the favorite passtimes of Muslim people is to tell stories of battles that happened in the 1300's and such. They never forget, and if you know about the beginings of the Muslim religion you see that Muhammed took an army of three hundred and battled for years against an army of thousands. The people of the time saw the hand of God in these battles and the Muslim people believe to this da ythat they can overcome ANY odds, it's a trademark of these people.

After the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, WWI, and WWII we just kissed and made up with all the offending parties... That will NEVER happen with a war against Islamic states, they always remember and will always keep fighting. The ONLY way to win a war on Islamic peoples is to kill every single one... Yup, eliminate one of the big 3 spiritual traditions. I don't think there's anyone who wants to go down that road.

Now, with Timothy McVeigh, yes, he honest to God thought he was doing what was right for America. (I don't believe he would, neither do many, many other people) but he fashioned himself as a defender of the constitution and a hero. Sometimes people just go crazy and don't realize how their actions might be wrong, but your right to voice your opinions ends when you deprive other people of their rights to voice theirs.

I honestly don't think that I am being overly emotional by this, yes... I miss my friend, and the thought of him fighting for 5 days in a row while sleeping an hour at a time in shifts scares the Hell out of me (I got all this information from his sister this morning). I know that in a 5 day long fight the chances of him not having to have killed for this war are remote. Still, I'm trying to stay level headed here.

Why are we in Iraq? Saddam abused his power before and it didn't seem like he was going to use it again, except within his own area. We SHOULD have taken care of Saddam before when he was abusing power and commiting murder, but for whatever reason we just decided to leave. We're trying now to do what's best for stability in that region, but we've opened up a can of worms even bigger that what we could have imagined. Frankly I don't see how making Iraq a militant Islamic state (we've done this already, Marines are being killed by the dozens by Iraqi clerics and their minons.) or backing out of this conflict can help. We've put ourselves between a rock and a hard place, does anyone see a successful conclusion to this?

We "win" in Iraq- We silence clerics and factions of militant Islamic people, set up a government in Iraq and try to build them in our own image. This will make a lot of Muslim's happy I'm sure... We'd forever have to be looking over our shoulders, waiting for the next terrorist strikes which would be inevitable. This war will never really end, Islamic people remember forever, and will never stop fighting us.

We have a "draw" or "lose" in Iraq- Either public opinion goes against the war so much or we lose too many lives we leave Iraq an unstable, ungoverned, re-militarized mess. Bodies litter the streets and whoever has the most guns takes over. We don't have much say in who it is and the resolve of Islamic people is that much stronger in that they can overcome any odds.

I honestly don't see how a positive resolution can come out of this! Does anyone see what good can come out of this conflict?

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Postby ChiliPalmer » Sat Apr 10, 2004 2:21 pm

Skinsfan55 wrote:I honestly don't see how a positive resolution can come out of this! Does anyone see what good can come out of this conflict?


If a single innocent human being is NOT going to be raped or totured or killed because Saddam is gone, I consider that a "good". That alone may not equal the term "worth it"...but I certainly site it as a "good".

Whether right or wrong, (there are things I know and things I don't), the good folks on this board with military experience are the one's I'll listen to the closest. Oh, I won't stop taking in information and forming my own opinions, but life is too short to experience everything, so I strongly believe in listening to folks who've experienced that which I have not. There seems to be a majority among those expressing their opinions on this subject on this forum, who've served us militarily. I won't summarily dismiss it simply because there are idealogues who are able to repeat cleverly worded rhetoric which opposes it. A skilled orator might sound good telling you that water isn't wet, but jump in if you want the truth.

In closing, when we are not at war, the "activist" celebrities of the world enjoy taking in Amnesty International events trumpetting human rights abroad. Seems like a fine idea, but when an administration that they detest commits troops and achieves some liberation for the oppressed, the same idea they recently cheered becomes that which they hiss at. It's so transparent that it's disgusting. It'd be a breath of fresh air to hear Tim Robbins or Alec Baldwin or Susan Sarandon stand up and say, "Truth be told, my real passion and my real mission is to loudly oppose anything outside of my political party of choice. Just tell me what the right is doing and I'll oppose it, I'll figure out later whether I'm wrong...or not."
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Postby Skinsfan55 » Sat Apr 10, 2004 3:32 pm

"If a single innocent human being is NOT going to be raped or totured or killed because Saddam is gone, I consider that a "good". That alone may not equal the term "worth it"...but I certainly site it as a "good"."

That's the thing, people are still being raped, tortured and killed... just by different people. We've had soldiers get captured, there is no doubt they are being tortured and we are killing Iraqi's and they are killing us... We haven't changed the situation for the better yet.

SFIR came the closest to convincing me that there was a legit reason for entering Iraq:

"1. Libya is now participating in a nuclear/bio/chemical inspection which up until 2 years ago Khadafy threatened inspectors with death.

2. North Korea came to the negotiating table almost as soon as we entered Baghdad.

3. Pakistan and India quit brandishing their nukes at each other."

These are all great things, and I'm glad these countries are coming around... but how can we end this problem in Iraq and have a positive conclusion? These are all short term things that SFIR mentioned... I just fail to see how the conflict in Iraq can have a happy ending. Does anyone see how this could possibly end well? This is a huge mess and it's going to take years and years to end it... I just hope when it is ended, things will have changed for the better.

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Postby tcwest10 » Sat Apr 10, 2004 6:27 pm

It's good that you care about the how andd the why, NC43.
All I can deal with at this point is, September 11th happened. This is how we're handling it. Were there other reasons ? Don't know. Doesn't matter to me what subterfuge, if any went on behind the scenes. Heck, we're still going back and forth about JFK's assasination. I don't concern myself with that aspect of it. There are brighter minds for that. I am blindly loyal to our troops, and I throw my lot in with them, if not those who sent them there.
That's all I can handle, really.
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Postby Brandon777 » Sat Apr 10, 2004 9:17 pm

I don't have a lot to say. I live in Fayetteville, NC, which is Ft. Bragg. I know a lot of soldiers. %99 of the soldiers I've talked to agree with Bush and feel the war in Iraq is justified. If the ones who are going over there to fight feel justified about what we're doing, civilians and liberals should to and quit whining. The middle east in my opinion is a land full of demented psycopaths. "If I strap a bomb on myself and kill the infidels on the bus I'll go to paradise and have 70 virgins." What a bunch of lunatics. I personally feel we're being to soft in Iraq.
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Postby Skinsfan55 » Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:56 am

"The middle east in my opinion is a land full of demented psycopaths. "If I strap a bomb on myself and kill the infidels on the bus I'll go to paradise and have 70 virgins." What a bunch of lunatics. I personally feel we're being to soft in Iraq."

^See, to me this is a lunatic statement^

Try to frame it like this... "Well, bombs and secret police have killed my cousins, my brothers, my sisters, my parents, my wife, my children and destroyed my home... I have nothing to live for, I am going to kill myself, but I am going to take a few of the people who did this with me"

For the record, were I going to go to Iraq I would try my damndest to believe in the cause... because if you don't there's not much hope for you in a battle, you'd just be killing for the sake of it. You HAVE to believe in the cause for your own survival and sanity in a time of war, so I'd be trying my hardest to be one of those 99%.

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Postby skinsfan46 » Sun Apr 11, 2004 3:04 pm

Support the troops,support our president and Hail to the Redskins!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SUEY!

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Postby redskincity » Sun Apr 11, 2004 4:03 pm

"We needed to be there, we dont need to be there." :-# :^o
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Postby Brandon777 » Mon Apr 12, 2004 5:32 pm

Skinsfan55 wrote:"The middle east in my opinion is a land full of demented psycopaths. "If I strap a bomb on myself and kill the infidels on the bus I'll go to paradise and have 70 virgins." What a bunch of lunatics. I personally feel we're being to soft in Iraq."

^See, to me this is a lunatic statement^

Try to frame it like this... "Well, bombs and secret police have killed my cousins, my brothers, my sisters, my parents, my wife, my children and destroyed my home... I have nothing to live for, I am going to kill myself, but I am going to take a few of the people who did this with me"

For the record, were I going to go to Iraq I would try my damndest to believe in the cause... because if you don't there's not much hope for you in a battle, you'd just be killing for the sake of it. You HAVE to believe in the cause for your own survival and sanity in a time of war, so I'd be trying my hardest to be one of those 99%.
Lunatic statement huh? Have you ever watched the news? Have you ever seen the news specials on the 9-11 hijackers? They all blew themselves up because they thought they were doing God a favor and that they will be rewarded. Their reward being an eternity in paradise surrounded by virgins. They also wanted to drive a wedge between Israel and the United States. I didn't make that up. Those are the facts. Look, I don't know what your situation is, but it seems to me your in college listening to your leftwing, fruity, estrogen filled professors. Anyone who can justify the actions of suicide bombers in Israel and other places, actions that consist of blowing themselves up to kill innocent women and children for the sake of their beliefs is clearly the one with mental problems.
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Postby Skinsfan55 » Mon Apr 12, 2004 9:20 pm

Brandon777 wrote:Lunatic statement huh? Have you ever watched the news? Have you ever seen the news specials on the 9-11 hijackers? They all blew themselves up because they thought they were doing God a favor and that they will be rewarded. Their reward being an eternity in paradise surrounded by virgins. They also wanted to drive a wedge between Israel and the United States. I didn't make that up. Those are the facts. Look, I don't know what your situation is, but it seems to me your in college listening to your leftwing, fruity, estrogen filled professors. Anyone who can justify the actions of suicide bombers in Israel and other places, actions that consist of blowing themselves up to kill innocent women and children for the sake of their beliefs is clearly the one with mental problems.


Lol, yeah... the news, now there's a good place to get conclusions and ideas pumped into your head in between fuzzy puppy stories and happy banter. Yes, that is something some Islamic people believe, that if they live a life of virtue that they are rewarded in Heaven by 72 virgins. What makes that any more or less silly that what Christians and Jews believe? The fact that you mock that shows that you're bigoted and close minded.

You are obviously not very well informed on this subject. (why you decided to jump into an argument that is clearly way over your head is beyond me). Islamic people have pretty much the exact different fundamental beliefs on how to live your life than we do. Same God, different way to make Him happy (and if you're not making Him happy, you're making him mad) So here we are working hard all our lives to keep ourselves too busy to commit sin (yes, this is what capitalism is, it was born of Calvinism) while the Islamic people believe that living a life of excess is sinful! Do you see the problem?

The fact that you would assume all the professors I have are fruity, leftwing and estrogen filled is downright ignorant. I won't even dignify that with a response.

I simply corrected your erroneous thinking when you said:

"The middle east in my opinion is a land full of demented psycopaths. "If I strap a bomb on myself and kill the infidels on the bus I'll go to paradise and have 70 virgins."

by replying that those people aren't throwing their lives away just because taking a few 'infidels' with them gets them laid in heaven. That's stupid. I am not defending their actions, obviously suicide bombings are a terrible, terrible thing, but understanding why people do what they do is of paramount importance. These people have lost everything, their place of work has been leveled, their cousins, their brothers, their sisters, their mother, their father, their wife, their children, their home... everything has been destroyed... Why bother to start over, it would all just be destroyed again. These people have had all hope of a happy and normal life taken away from them. Suicide is a forgone conclusion; why not take a few of the people who did this with you?

I suggest you attend a lecture given by a leftwing, fruity, estrogen filled professor, you might learn something.

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Postby Texas Hog » Tue Apr 13, 2004 9:45 am

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Monkey em is what I say...they've done this to themselves. Call me closed minded if you wish, but I believe the entire region is whacked.

Forgive me if I don't have time to debate this subject ad nausea, but know this, I will always support our troops, our administation and any cause it sees fit to pursue.

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Postby Skinsfan55 » Tue Apr 13, 2004 1:03 pm

"I will always support our troops, our administation and any cause it sees fit to pursue."

If you had started out with this sentance I would have been able to save myself reading the rest of it.

They did this to themselves? They decided to be born in an area that has been of worldwide importance since civilization began? If it's not trade routes it's oil and people have been trying to invade the middle east for centuries.

To say everyone in the region is "whacked" isn't JUST close-minded, it's ignorant. I daresay these people handle constant bombing, secret police assasinations and the bulldozing of their homes to weed out terrorists far better than you or I would.

If you don't have time to debate this, at least make a little time to learn about it.

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Postby Brandon777 » Tue Apr 13, 2004 1:24 pm

Skinsfan55 wrote:
Brandon777 wrote:Lunatic statement huh? Have you ever watched the news? Have you ever seen the news specials on the 9-11 hijackers? They all blew themselves up because they thought they were doing God a favor and that they will be rewarded. Their reward being an eternity in paradise surrounded by virgins. They also wanted to drive a wedge between Israel and the United States. I didn't make that up. Those are the facts. Look, I don't know what your situation is, but it seems to me your in college listening to your leftwing, fruity, estrogen filled professors. Anyone who can justify the actions of suicide bombers in Israel and other places, actions that consist of blowing themselves up to kill innocent women and children for the sake of their beliefs is clearly the one with mental problems.


Lol, yeah... the news, now there's a good place to get conclusions and ideas pumped into your head in between fuzzy puppy stories and happy banter. Yes, that is something some Islamic people believe, that if they live a life of virtue that they are rewarded in Heaven by 72 virgins. What makes that any more or less silly that what Christians and Jews believe? The fact that you mock that shows that you're bigoted and close minded.

You are obviously not very well informed on this subject. (why you decided to jump into an argument that is clearly way over your head is beyond me). Islamic people have pretty much the exact different fundamental beliefs on how to live your life than we do. Same God, different way to make Him happy (and if you're not making Him happy, you're making him mad) So here we are working hard all our lives to keep ourselves too busy to commit sin (yes, this is what capitalism is, it was born of Calvinism) while the Islamic people believe that living a life of excess is sinful! Do you see the problem?

The fact that you would assume all the professors I have are fruity, leftwing and estrogen filled is downright ignorant. I won't even dignify that with a response.

I simply corrected your erroneous thinking when you said:

"The middle east in my opinion is a land full of demented psycopaths. "If I strap a bomb on myself and kill the infidels on the bus I'll go to paradise and have 70 virgins."

by replying that those people aren't throwing their lives away just because taking a few 'infidels' with them gets them laid in heaven. That's stupid. I am not defending their actions, obviously suicide bombings are a terrible, terrible thing, but understanding why people do what they do is of paramount importance. These people have lost everything, their place of work has been leveled, their cousins, their brothers, their sisters, their mother, their father, their wife, their children, their home... everything has been destroyed... Why bother to start over, it would all just be destroyed again. These people have had all hope of a happy and normal life taken away from them. Suicide is a forgone conclusion; why not take a few of the people who did this with you?

I suggest you attend a lecture given by a leftwing, fruity, estrogen filled professor, you might learn something.
I did attend lectures in college by these gay professors. I hate wasting my time typing in response to your queer comments. I always considered myself an independent, but I support Bush. Conservatives in this day of age seem to look at issues more rational than liberals getting on their soap box. The one thing that I hate about liberals such as yourself is that you always have to mouth off about your politics in every known outlet you can and be so dramatic about it. For instance, 99% of the people come here to talk about football and other light hearted subjects in the lounge. Liberals like yourself, come here trying to push an agenda. The news for the most part is run by left wing liberals, people such as yourself. So I wouldn't go on talking smack about a media outlet that is bias in your favor. I guess my assumption about you was correct about you being a college kid, considering you came to the defense of your FRUITY professors. But talking to people like yourself is a waste of time. Liberals claim to be so OPEN MINDED, yet they're so stuck in their own fantasy. If your so against consevative christians and seem to think that muslims in the middle east are not demented, just a little frustrated at Big Brother, then why don't you take yourself to Iraq and use yourself as a human shield and prevent us aggressors from blowing up your friends :roll: .
Last edited by Brandon777 on Tue Apr 13, 2004 9:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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