Helu Jr. on path to recovery after surgery

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Postby Chris Luva Luva » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:01 am

DarthMonk wrote:Who's handing the tripper the ball is meaningless.


That's complete BS. There was an obvious difference between Morris's ability to get cleanly though the line when Kirk started against the Browns. The QB makes a HUGE difference in how a RB is defended against. Portis always say 8-man fronts because nobody respected the QB's. If you can't equate some of Portis's stumbling due to having an 2 extra defenders in the box, then I don't know how else to explain it to you.

Portis had NO stumbling issues in Denver. NONE. He gets here with a horrible owner, horrible FO, and QB's who can't cut it... He starts to decline. Portis showed what he could do on a real NFL team and we weren't a real team back then, we were a joke. And it's amazing that Gibbs could do what he did with this joke of an organization. And the fact that Portis set the records he did despite that BS is amazing.
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Postby SkinsJock » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:27 am

Royster and Helu are good RBs but they'll never be as good as Clinton Portis ...

It's a good thing to have depth and it's also great to have players competing for roster spots
Getting our QB back will help a lot but we still have a lot of issues to address

Players and coaches need to believe that they can be successful - they are not playing with that attitude - big changes are coming

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Postby Deadskins » Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:19 pm

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
DarthMonk wrote:Who's handing the tripper the ball is meaningless.


That's complete BS. There was an obvious difference between Morris's ability to get cleanly though the line when Kirk started against the Browns. The QB makes a HUGE difference in how a RB is defended against. Portis always say 8-man fronts because nobody respected the QB's. If you can't equate some of Portis's stumbling due to having an 2 extra defenders in the box, then I don't know how else to explain it to you.

Portis had NO stumbling issues in Denver. NONE. He gets here with a horrible owner, horrible FO, and QB's who can't cut it... He starts to decline. Portis showed what he could do on a real NFL team and we weren't a real team back then, we were a joke. And it's amazing that Gibbs could do what he did with this joke of an organization. And the fact that Portis set the records he did despite that BS is amazing.

Good points.
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Postby Redskin in Canada » Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:39 pm

Calm down, people. The shameful FO past is the shameful FO past. There were heroes on the field and heroes on the sidelines but in the NFL teams compete from the FO all the way down to trainers and medical staff going through players and coaches. It is one if not the most competitive sports league in the World. We did not have a FO before. Not even Gibbs could workout a miracle without it.

As far as Portis is concerned, I can ONLY imagine what this organization would have been if we could think of RGIII, Alfred Morris and Clinton Portis on the field ... WOW :shock:

NO QUESTION, CP on his prime leaves, with the exception of Alfred, all of our other current RBs on the floor just staring. Let's hope that our two rookies stand up and fill those big empty shoes in competition!
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Postby Chris Luva Luva » Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:43 pm

Redskin in Canada wrote:Calm down, people. The shameful FO past is the shameful FO past. There were heroes on the field and heroes on the sidelines but in the NFL teams compete from the FO all the way down to trainers and medical staff going through players and coaches. It is one if not the most competitive sports league in the World. We did not have a FO before. Not even Gibbs could workout a miracle without it.


Agreed. I was only pointing out that Portis's lack of production had nothing to do with him, IMHO. He proved himself before arriving here.


Redskin in Canada wrote:As far as Portis is concerned, I can ONLY imagine what this organization would have been if we could think of GRIII, Alfred Morris and Clinton Portis on the field ... WOW


Goodness, you read my mind. I had it typed up in my original post but it was getting to lengthly. Goodness that would be unstoppable. You'd truly have a hard time figuring out how to start. IMO, it'd be like our saftey position, it'd be interchangeable.


Redskin in Canada wrote:NO QUESTION, CP on his prime leaves, with the exception of Alfred, all of our other current RBs on the floor just staring. Let's hope that our two rookies stand up and fill those big empty shoes in competition!


Agreed. I'm excited for the competition. I think these kids will be suprising. Jawan's quickness is a unique attribute to him, no other RB on the roster can match it. I'm curious to see him getting KR duties during the preseason. Or even PR but I think Crawford his that position locked... Unless Crawford pushes for a starting CB spot and they're reluctant to expose him to more contact.

yahoo sports wrote:Jamison is so quick that he broke four runs of at least 41 yards last fall before injuring his ankle.


The kid from FSU is prolly the fastest of all the backs, it'll be interesting to see how he is in the screen game. Of course, Alfred is just a great mix of size, speed, vision, etc.
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Postby DarthMonk » Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:47 pm

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
DarthMonk wrote:Who's handing the tripper the ball is meaningless.


That's complete BS. There was an obvious difference between Morris's ability to get cleanly though the line when Kirk started against the Browns. The QB makes a HUGE difference in how a RB is defended against. Portis always say 8-man fronts because nobody respected the QB's. If you can't equate some of Portis's stumbling due to having an 2 extra defenders in the box, then I don't know how else to explain it to you.

Portis had NO stumbling issues in Denver. NONE. He gets here with a horrible owner, horrible FO, and QB's who can't cut it... He starts to decline. Portis showed what he could do on a real NFL team and we weren't a real team back then, we were a joke. And it's amazing that Gibbs could do what he did with this joke of an organization. And the fact that Portis set the records he did despite that BS is amazing.


If Carrie Underwood hands Portis the ball and then he takes two steps and starts to stumble in a gaping hole it's his fault not hers.

I've said it once and I'll say it again - he was a great back. Particularly in his frist year with us our passing game had no respect, he was ganged up on, and mostly got his yards the hard way. That does not mean he was perfect. He had a stumbling problem. He stumbled a lot in gaping holes and the QB had nothing to do with that.

What he did against 8 man fronts was amazing. I do not deny that. I applaud it. I posted about it. I am talking about stumbling in gaping holes. If you don't remember seeing that I understand. I saw it a LOT.

I cannot speak to his possible lack of stumbling issues in Denver. I did not watch all their games. I watched all of ours. Every week (or nearly) I saw Clinton Portis get a clean handoff, enter a large hole, and begin stumbling for no apparent reason. My buddy Scott and I would expect it, see it, and say "if only" week after week.

I agree with ALMOST everything you just said. Your reply contains good stuff but does not address what I said - stumbling in gaping holes. Therefore your reply is complete BS not the quote of me.
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Postby Chris Luva Luva » Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:59 pm

DarthMonk wrote:If Carrie Underwood hands Portis the ball and then he takes two steps and starts to stumble in a gaping hole it's his fault not hers.


My bad, I didn't know that football is only played with two people.


DarthMonk wrote:I cannot speak to his possible lack of stumbling issues in Denver.


Of course you can't, because they didn't exist in Denver. They didn't occur often in a system that had a competent QB that stretched the defense and a ZBS that stretched the defense laterally. Like I said, I think has issues had more to do with the surrounding circumstances and less to do with him as a player. I'm not saying they didn't exist, I simply attribute to poor play around him.

What surrounding circumstances? What defense is going to focus on anything other than stopping CP and ruining run lanes when you have these HOF characters to pay attention to?

Jim Zorn :lol:
Al Saunders 2000 page playbook
Jason Campbell scared girl
Brunell noodle arm, couldn't throw past the LOS
McRib :lol:
Rex :lol: :lol:
Brand Llyod strikes fear in opposing defenses hearts
David Patten a WR that nobody hear prolly remembers existed
Antwann Randel El another WR that defenses surely respect lmao

The ONLY help CP ever had was Cooley who was also ruined by piss poor QB play.
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Postby DarthMonk » Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:17 pm

^^^ evasive and sarcastic. Gaping holes ... stumbling.

Guy produced bigtime. Not much help. No argument there.

Gaping holes ... stumbling. That's all I'm saying. It's a fact.
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Postby Chris Luva Luva » Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:29 pm

DarthMonk wrote:^^^ evasive and sarcastic. Gaping holes ... stumbling.

Guy produced bigtime. Not much help. No argument there.

Gaping holes ... stumbling. That's all I'm saying. It's a fact.


I just can't fault a man for developing a trait that didn't exist prior to his arrival to Washington... It didn't exist, so it makes me ask, what changed? Why did he develop it?

If I had to truly narrow it down to one thing, I'd say that it was the weight gain... He gained weight that his body wasn't suited for or used to carrying because he was placed in an offensive scheme that contradicted his playing style. He had to bulk up to absorb the contact of 8 defenders. He had to bulk up to be the work-horse and get over 25 carries a game. Gibbs ran this kid into the ground because he had nothing else. Those are facts. Now, it's just my assumption that this explains his lack of balance in Washington.

Clinton was more Chris Thompson than Alfred Morris. But because of the poor state of the team, he wasn't even asked to be Alfred, he had to be Jerome Bettis. They beat this kid against a defensive wall until they gave in.

After doing some research, CP was around 205 with the Bronco's. He got up to 221 with the Skins. I'll look for concrete numbers.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/5937/news

"Washington head strength coach John Dunn has finally begun to make some headway with Portis' apparent disdain for weightlifting. During the 2005 off-season, Portis committed wholeheartedly to Dunn, hitting the squat rack and the bench with zeal and packing on more than 20 pounds of muscle--up to 225 pounds from 204 last season."


While this was an improvement for his durability, it was a detriment to his top end speed and agility. You can't through 20 pounds on a man without any effects... Every action has an opposite and equal reaction. Get heavier, you get slower, more sluggish.

additonal edit - the link above works but the content quoted is no longer there. obviously... lol. however, the quoted information can be found below, with the link shown above. However, due to time elapsing, it's been taken down in subsequent years.

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/f4/knowshon-moreno-clinton-portis-126458.html
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Postby DarthMonk » Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:39 pm

Chris Luva Luva wrote:
DarthMonk wrote:^^^ evasive and sarcastic. Gaping holes ... stumbling.

Guy produced bigtime. Not much help. No argument there.

Gaping holes ... stumbling. That's all I'm saying. It's a fact.


I just can't fault a man for developing a trait that didn't exist prior to his arrival to Washington... It didn't exist, so it makes me ask, what changed? Why did he develop it?

If I had to truly narrow it down to one thing, I'd say that it was the weight gain... He gained weight that his body wasn't suited for or used to carrying because he was placed in an offensive scheme that contradicted his playing style. He had to bulk up to absorb the contact of 8 defenders. He had to bulk up to be the work-horse and get over 25 carries a game. Gibbs ran this kid into the ground because he had nothing else. Those are facts. Now, it's just my assumption that this explains his lack of balance in Washington.

Clinton was more Chris Thompson than Alfred Morris. But because of the poor state of the team, he wasn't even asked to be Alfred, he had to be Jerome Bettis. They beat this kid against a defensive wall until they gave in.

After doing some research, CP was around 205 with the Bronco's. He got up to 221 with the Skins. I'll look for concrete numbers.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/5937/news

"Washington head strength coach John Dunn has finally begun to make some headway with Portis' apparent disdain for weightlifting. During the 2005 off-season, Portis committed wholeheartedly to Dunn, hitting the squat rack and the bench with zeal and packing on more than 20 pounds of muscle--up to 225 pounds from 204 last season."


While this was an improvement for his durability, it was a detriment to his top end speed and agility. You can't through 20 pounds on a man without any effects... Every action has an opposite and equal reaction. Get heavier, you get slower, more sluggish.


I completely buy ^ this ^ and have posted similar stuff. I always wished we had kept him light and adjusted our scheme to him. I think he put 2 hands on the ball way more with us. I think he was fumble conscious with us.

Here is where I stand on how our QB helps our RB:

DarthMonk wrote:
riggofan wrote:Also I was going to add that we heard a lot this season about how Morris looked a lot better because of RGIII. Didn't the Browns game kind of squash that argument? Morris looked pretty damn good with Cousins under center.


There was a lot of talk by the "pundits" about how Morris' "subpar" performance vs the Browns showed how much his success depends on Griff. I think it's not so much that he has Griff but more that he has Not Rex.

When Rex played we ran boots and the defense TOTALLY DISREGARDED HIM. If he made a good fake and bootlegged to an open field all an edge defender had to do was stop, turn around, and catch him (maybe even get a batted ball or fumble as part of the deal). We were literally playing 10 against 11 with Rex.

With Griff not only can defenses not disregard him - they have to dedicate a man to him and if they don't they are in trouble. Someone simply must stay home on the backside and that one guy usually cannot get the job done. Thus, with Griff, we play 11 against 11 or maybe even 10 against 10 or 10 against 9.

When the Captain played against Cleveland they started off playing him like Rex. They stacked the box and we were playing 10 against 11. Morris mostly got stuffed. But then the boots came and the Captain made them pay the way Rex almost never did. And when they finally kept a guy home it wasn't enough. That was the play when Hank got his 2nd TD.

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Nice exchange. I was just about ready to call us ...

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Postby Chris Luva Luva » Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:49 pm

DarthMonk wrote:I completely buy ^ this ^ and have posted similar stuff. I always wished we had kept him light and adjusted our scheme to him. I think he put 2 hands on the ball way more with us. I think he was fumble conscious with us.


He couldn't though, that's the problem. At 205 pounds, he's not going to carry 30 times a game and survive. The stats showed that when he carried 25+ times he usually won, and thats why he's out the league at an early age. Gibbs system was wrong for Clinton Portis and he selflessly dealt with it. I'll admit, I defend him staunchly because he gave us everything he had when this franchise was at its ABSOLUTELY LOWEST. THIS TEAM WAS SCUM! WE WERE THE JOKE OF THE NFL. This kid give it his all.

Great point about the fumbling... Why was he doing it? Coaching prolly. We weren't a high powered offense. We were putting up 14-17 points on a good day, you can't afford to turn the ball over EVER with that offense.


DarthMonk wrote:Here is where I stand on how our QB helps our RB:


Agreed. A competent QB will complete change the way an opponent defends the rest of the field. A QB makes an offensive line look better than they are. Look at the Colts with Peyton and the year after he was injured. Night and day. Look at our line with Rex and then with RGIII.

So in how it relates to our debate. A competent QB helps CP by keeping him clean. Taking the 7trh and 8th man out the box helps. Having WR's that can BLOCK helps. However, it's my opinion that the weight was the true detriment to his agility. Because it's my opinion that he had to gain the weight to survive and that he was our only offensive weapon, I will not blame him for it. (cooley was a weapon but was reliant on the QB)

DarthMonk wrote:Nice exchange. I was just about ready to call us ...

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You called me out for being the sarcastic jerk that I am, so decided to actually defend my stance. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby yupchagee » Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:34 pm

DarthMonk wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:- Portis was playing with Danny Wuerfel and a power run scheme, you're comparing apples to oranges. He had a valid excuse, these guys are running through 4 lane wide holes and start to trip up. lol..


Who's handing the tripper the ball is meaningless. I'm talking about Portis doing exactly that ... tripping in a gaping hole ... that's apples to apples. I just woiulda called it Portis disease instead since I think he had is worse than either Royster or Helu.

No hatin' here on Royster. I just think a healthy Helu is superior. Could be wrong.

BTW ... Portis was great (#8 all time in yards per game) ... but he stumbled and tripped through gaping holes weekly. I watched it for years.


1) QB play makes a big difference. RGIII is the best ball handler we have had since LeBaron.

2) When Portis was here, there were very few gaping holes.
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Postby DarthMonk » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:32 pm

yupchagee wrote:
DarthMonk wrote:
Chris Luva Luva wrote:- Portis was playing with Danny Wuerfel and a power run scheme, you're comparing apples to oranges. He had a valid excuse, these guys are running through 4 lane wide holes and start to trip up. lol..


Who's handing the tripper the ball is meaningless. I'm talking about Portis doing exactly that ... tripping in a gaping hole ... that's apples to apples. I just woiulda called it Portis disease instead since I think he had is worse than either Royster or Helu.

No hatin' here on Royster. I just think a healthy Helu is superior. Could be wrong.

BTW ... Portis was great (#8 all time in yards per game) ... but he stumbled and tripped through gaping holes weekly. I watched it for years.


1) QB play makes a big difference. RGIII is the best ball handler we have had since LeBaron.

2) When Portis was here, there were very few gaping holes.


BTW, this is a Helu thread so I'll repost the latest on him but I hope I was clear. I love Portis. He gave us his best. He's arguably a top 10 all time RB. Bulking him up was a choice made by coaches and him. It did not have to happen. He did not have to be a work horse. It was a choice.

CP's heaviest workload in his life was with us in 2005. He averaged 22 carries a game exactly. When people throw around 25 and 30 carries per game they are almost always exagerating. I say we made a mistake in insisting he put on weight. Some light guys are durable and some heavier guys get hurt a lot. Whatever.

QB makes a big diff in how Ds defend us but QB makes no difference concerning stumbling in a gaping hole 2 or 3 steps after a handoff.

That whole discussion came about when I read this from CLL:

Chris Luva Luva wrote:He [Helu] seems to suffer from that Royster poor balance disease. lol


When I read that I immediately thought of Portis. I am not dissing Portis. I simply made an observation. Whatever disease CLL observed in Royster I also observed in CP. No big deal. I guess this is why they call them "threads." One thing leads to another and a thread emerges and is followed (or not).

There were enough gaping holes that CP ran for 1315, 1516, 1262, and 1487 in his 4 full seasons here. There were also enough for me and many others to see his propensity to stumble for no apparent reason. It's all over the web and many threads exist in other forums discussing the very issue.

I love Portis. He was awesome. I wish he had not put on weight and that we had played to his speed and elusiveness. We chose not to. He had a stumbling problem with us. I think CLL and I got to the root of it.

Helu:

As for comparing him to Royster he's bigger by about 10 pounds, is faster (4.42 to 4.65), and, IMO, has better hands and reads and sets up blocks just as well or better than Royster. This does not mean he's better but, I think he is. If he is healthy he seems like the perfect compliment to Alf. Shanny drafted him, right? I call him Shady McCoy with more size. The best part of all of this is we are likely to cut someone whom another team will want. Times have changed.

Roy Helu has undergone 'dry needling' to help loosen the muscles in his legs.

Helu has been unable to sustain health since posting 1,019 total yards as a rookie. He blames his series of lower-body injuries on tight muscles, but adds the acupuncture-like dry needling has produced "great results." If Helu's toe is healthy, he'll have a decent shot at winning the third-down job.

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Postby Deadskins » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:15 am

DarthMonk wrote:Helu:

As for comparing him to Royster he's bigger by about 10 pounds, is faster (4.42 to 4.65), and, IMO, has better hands and reads and sets up blocks just as well or better than Royster.

That's exactly where Helu falls far short of Royster, IMO. I watched a good bit of film on both last off-season, trying to see who should win the job in 2012 (turns out it was neither :lol: ), and was thoroughly impressed by Royster's vision.
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Postby DarthMonk » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:20 pm

Deadskins wrote:
DarthMonk wrote:Helu:

As for comparing him to Royster he's bigger by about 10 pounds, is faster (4.42 to 4.65), and, IMO, has better hands and reads and sets up blocks just as well or better than Royster.

That's exactly where Helu falls far short of Royster, IMO. I watched a good bit of film on both last off-season, trying to see who should win the job in 2012 (turns out it was neither :lol: ), and was thoroughly impressed by Royster's vision.


Far short, huh? Wow.

Fair enough. A simple disagreement. IMO Helu is top notch at setting up and reading blocks. I think he presses the right hole extremely well in our ZBS. He reminds me of a big Kelvin Bryant when he's running. He's got soft hands as well. Not only that, if a DL busts through he's got the speed to get the edge anyway. That speed really helps set up blocks and cut back lanes because the D has to pursue so hard.

Isn't football frickin' great?

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