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Postby riggofan » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:13 am

DaSkinz Baby wrote:In regards to Pat not being on the team, I think that has more to do with RG's confidence and not having us fans scream to put Pat in to run the read option.


Yeah I'm sure that's it. Apparently the other 31 teams in the league are having the same reservations concerning Pat While. Everybody is afraid he is going to cause a QB controversy with his awesomeness. lol.

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Postby DaSkinz Baby » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:40 am

riggofan wrote:
DaSkinz Baby wrote:In regards to Pat not being on the team, I think that has more to do with RG's confidence and not having us fans scream to put Pat in to run the read option.


Yeah I'm sure that's it. Apparently the other 31 teams in the league are having the same reservations concerning Pat While. Everybody is afraid he is going to cause a QB controversy with his awesomeness. lol.


That is but a possible reason, also since the read option isn't working as it did last year I think also is a reason why he hasn't been picked up. But regardless your set to think the way you want as I am. I know at times it's just better to simply bow out gracefully than to continue to walk to Mars.

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Postby markshark84 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:55 am

SkinsJock wrote:let me clarify - I am not suggesting that this year's record is not a factor - it is!
my point is more that this year's team is ('on paper') better than the team we had last year ... AND ... we have yet to see them play at the level that this year's team is capable of

I think that is going to happen and I look for a number of players to really lift their games and play at a much better level than we've seen so far :lol:

I also look for the DC and OC to do a better job getting ready for the pukes :roll:


Ok, but I think you and I see things differently.

What we have "on paper" means poop. This isn't Madden.

I'm not saying this as a shot (so please don't take it as one as it is 100% not intended to be one), but did you play the game in high school or college? The reason I ask is because how a team plays as a unit is much more important than how players play individually (i.e., "on paper"). This is the #1 thing Danny boy didn't understand when he bought the team. He had never played the game. He had no clue about team dynamic, on-field player roles, leadership, comfortability, trust, how certain schemes compliment players, etc. Therefore, he built the best team on paper and didn't factor in any of the other determinables --- the intangibles that make this game one of the most diffcult to predict.

But honestly, has this team not played to what it is "capable" of -- based on where they are? RGIII is still hurt and is not the dynamic playmaker he was last year. He looks like a "game manager" QB right now -- in that he isn't the one making plays --- he is the one facilitating the ball to the play-makers. The only problem is that this team only has 2 playmakers --- Garcon and Morris. And only having 2 playmakers makes defending a whole lot easier.

Until RGIII turns things around ---- we are playing to our capabilities (at least offensively).
- Our OL is doing enough (despite our lacking passing attack, our OL is still getting Morris 5.3 ypc and giving RGIII enough time to make a play),
- Morris is actually playing BETTER than last year given the circumstances,
- Garcon, Moss, and Hankerson are playing as well or better than last year
- TE play has improved from the prior year

Now defensively -- I agree. Our D is underperforming.

It goes to show just how incredible RGIII was last season. Until we see last year's version, we are unfortunetely playing to our offensive capabilities.

And to your final 2 points --- I hope that our players magically get better also, but that type of improvement doesn't just happen. Haslett has proven he is a below average DC. I honestly think KS is a solid OC --- he just designed an offense that no longer has the tools.
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Postby DaSkinz Baby » Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:13 pm

markshark84 wrote:
SkinsJock wrote:let me clarify - I am not suggesting that this year's record is not a factor - it is!
my point is more that this year's team is ('on paper') better than the team we had last year ... AND ... we have yet to see them play at the level that this year's team is capable of

I think that is going to happen and I look for a number of players to really lift their games and play at a much better level than we've seen so far :lol:

I also look for the DC and OC to do a better job getting ready for the pukes :roll:


Ok, but I think you and I see things differently.

What we have "on paper" means poop. This isn't Madden.

I'm not saying this as a shot (so please don't take it as one as it is 100% not intended to be one), but did you play the game in high school or college? The reason I ask is because how a team plays as a unit is much more important than how players play individually (i.e., "on paper"). This is the #1 thing Danny boy didn't understand when he bought the team. He had never played the game. He had no clue about team dynamic, on-field player roles, leadership, comfortability, trust, how certain schemes compliment players, etc. Therefore, he built the best team on paper and didn't factor in any of the other determinables --- the intangibles that make this game one of the most diffcult to predict.

But honestly, has this team not played to what it is "capable" of -- based on where they are? RGIII is still hurt and is not the dynamic playmaker he was last year. He looks like a "game manager" QB right now -- in that he isn't the one making plays --- he is the one facilitating the ball to the play-makers. The only problem is that this team only has 2 playmakers --- Garcon and Morris. And only having 2 playmakers makes defending a whole lot easier.

Until RGIII turns things around ---- we are playing to our capabilities (at least offensively).
- Our OL is doing enough (despite our lacking passing attack, our OL is still getting Morris 5.3 ypc and giving RGIII enough time to make a play),
- Morris is actually playing BETTER than last year given the circumstances,
- Garcon, Moss, and Hankerson are playing as well or better than last year
- TE play has improved from the prior year

Now defensively -- I agree. Our D is underperforming.

It goes to show just how incredible RGIII was last season. Until we see last year's version, we are unfortunetely playing to our offensive capabilities.

And to your final 2 points --- I hope that our players magically get better also, but that type of improvement doesn't just happen. Haslett has proven he is a below average DC. I honestly think KS is a solid OC --- he just designed an offense that no longer has the tools.


While I agree with 95% of what you wrote how can you really say that Garcon, Moss and Hankerson are playing as well or better than last year. Garcon hasn't had the touches, Moss seems to not be able to get open and when he is can't catch a cold, Hankerson I think has shown improvement over last year but honestly I think Moss has really disappointed me with his alligator hands, he must be too close to Aldrick I can't catch Robinson :lol: Also Tight ends seem to be a decline this year overall. Paulsen is not catching the way he did last year, Fred Davis has not gotten open as he was known to do in the past and until our rookie comes back and plays consistently I do see our tightends as a negative overall. We all know Niles Paul drops more than he catches as well. Now in regards to KS being a decent OC, I would call him average. You can't create an offense and then realize you no longer have the pieces to run that type of offense and then expect your starting QB WHO is already dealing with coming back from injury to learn to also become a drop back passer, especially when you already have a drop back passer that has shown a better understanding of reading secondary coverages, as Kirk has. Right now RG1-3 doesn't give us the best chance to win, I know that hurts but it's truth, Play Kirk who works to what your trying to do as a OC for now and give RG some series until he is back to 100% and has the confidence that he doesn't have. At least that is what I think should be done.

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Postby Deadskins » Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:24 pm

DaSkinz Baby wrote:In regards to Pat not being on the team, I think that has more to do with RG's confidence and not having us fans scream to put Pat in to run the read option.

Pat White isn't on the team because Kai Forbath was injured, and a 4th QB is less valuable than any other roster spot. It's as simple as that.
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Postby StorminMormon86 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:28 pm

riggofan wrote:
StorminMormon86 wrote:You missed the point. He said we moved the ball in the preseason with White because of White's ability to run, and that Griffin needs to do the same. Cousins did not run, and we moved the ball. Yes it was preseason. But we don't need Griffin to run to move the ball.


You're kidding, right? You're going to compare Pat White in the 4th of quarter of the third preseason game against the Bills to RGIII playing in the first quarter of a regular season game against the Packers. In Lambeau.

No, I didn't miss this point. There wasn't any point to be made.

Jesus, how can I make this any clearer? The guy was saying we needed RGIII to be more mobile or else we cannot move the ball down the field. Yes he used preseason logic which is meaningless. Despite what some others think, we do have the talent on our offense for Griffin to be a traditional pocket style passer. Whether or not he can actually become one is yet to be seen.

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Postby DaSkinz Baby » Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:31 pm

StorminMormon86 wrote:
riggofan wrote:
StorminMormon86 wrote:You missed the point. He said we moved the ball in the preseason with White because of White's ability to run, and that Griffin needs to do the same. Cousins did not run, and we moved the ball. Yes it was preseason. But we don't need Griffin to run to move the ball.


You're kidding, right? You're going to compare Pat White in the 4th of quarter of the third preseason game against the Bills to RGIII playing in the first quarter of a regular season game against the Packers. In Lambeau.

No, I didn't miss this point. There wasn't any point to be made.

Jesus, how can I make this any clearer? The guy was saying we needed RGIII to be more mobile or else we cannot win games. That's simply not true. Despite what some others think, we do have the talent on our offense for Griffin to be a traditional pocket style passer. Whether or not he can actually become one is yet to be seen.


Do you really think at this juncture RG1-3 is good enough to be a drop back passer? Cause he isn't and the 0-3 start and the game we barely won pretty much proves that. He hasn't ever had to sit back and read defenses and you thinking he can do that especially at this level is pretty unrealistic in my opinion.....

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Postby Deadskins » Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:35 pm

DaSkinz Baby wrote:Garcon hasn't had the touches

Say what? Garcon is on a pace to have 43 more targets and 46 more receptions than the best season of his career (2011 - 70 rec 134 trg).
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Postby Deadskins » Thu Oct 03, 2013 12:59 pm

DaSkinz Baby wrote:You can't create an offense and then realize you no longer have the pieces to run that type of offense and then expect your starting QB WHO is already dealing with coming back from injury to learn to also become a drop back passer, especially when you already have a drop back passer that has shown a better understanding of reading secondary coverages, as Kirk has.

A few posts ago you said:

DaSkinz Baby wrote:Let's face facts that with a normal drop back passer this team is mediocre at best

So, which is it?
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Postby DaSkinz Baby » Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:13 pm

Deadskins wrote:
DaSkinz Baby wrote:You can't create an offense and then realize you no longer have the pieces to run that type of offense and then expect your starting QB WHO is already dealing with coming back from injury to learn to also become a drop back passer, especially when you already have a drop back passer that has shown a better understanding of reading secondary coverages, as Kirk has.

A few posts ago you said:

DaSkinz Baby wrote:Let's face facts that with a normal drop back passer this team is mediocre at best

So, which is it?


This team is mediocre at best with a drop back passer, but I think Kirk Cousins provides us the best chance to win being a drop back passing team, because number one, he has been a drop back passer from pretty much his entire career, he never had to depend on his 4.3 40 time to win games. So us not being a drop back passing team to actually put a hurt QB back there to "learn on the fly" is pretty much an asinine thing to do. Coaches need to field the best product every game day and even though RG may be a better QB than Kirk, at this point healthwise I don't think he is and I don't think we have the luxury of allowing RG the time to learn to do this during the season, this should have been done in preseason so he would have been further along in the curve. Perhaps Shanahan feels that 5-6 games is enough to get RG back to where he was, however I don't agree and that means nothing in the grand scheme of things, I know. But again you can't put a team in a position not to succeed and then play on the intelligence of people with a higher football IQ and expect this to work, when you know your handicapping your team.

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Postby StorminMormon86 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:20 pm

DaSkinz Baby wrote:
StorminMormon86 wrote:
riggofan wrote:
StorminMormon86 wrote:You missed the point. He said we moved the ball in the preseason with White because of White's ability to run, and that Griffin needs to do the same. Cousins did not run, and we moved the ball. Yes it was preseason. But we don't need Griffin to run to move the ball.


You're kidding, right? You're going to compare Pat White in the 4th of quarter of the third preseason game against the Bills to RGIII playing in the first quarter of a regular season game against the Packers. In Lambeau.

No, I didn't miss this point. There wasn't any point to be made.

Jesus, how can I make this any clearer? The guy was saying we needed RGIII to be more mobile or else we cannot win games. That's simply not true. Despite what some others think, we do have the talent on our offense for Griffin to be a traditional pocket style passer. Whether or not he can actually become one is yet to be seen.


Do you really think at this juncture RG1-3 is good enough to be a drop back passer? Cause he isn't and the 0-3 start and the game we barely won pretty much proves that. He hasn't ever had to sit back and read defenses and you thinking he can do that especially at this level is pretty unrealistic in my opinion.....

He can improve to become a great one for sure. This is only his 2nd year after all.

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Postby emoses14 » Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:05 pm

StorminMormon86 wrote:
DaSkinz Baby wrote:
StorminMormon86 wrote:
riggofan wrote:
StorminMormon86 wrote:You missed the point. He said we moved the ball in the preseason with White because of White's ability to run, and that Griffin needs to do the same. Cousins did not run, and we moved the ball. Yes it was preseason. But we don't need Griffin to run to move the ball.


You're kidding, right? You're going to compare Pat White in the 4th of quarter of the third preseason game against the Bills to RGIII playing in the first quarter of a regular season game against the Packers. In Lambeau.

No, I didn't miss this point. There wasn't any point to be made.

Jesus, how can I make this any clearer? The guy was saying we needed RGIII to be more mobile or else we cannot win games. That's simply not true. Despite what some others think, we do have the talent on our offense for Griffin to be a traditional pocket style passer. Whether or not he can actually become one is yet to be seen.


Do you really think at this juncture RG1-3 is good enough to be a drop back passer? Cause he isn't and the 0-3 start and the game we barely won pretty much proves that. He hasn't ever had to sit back and read defenses and you thinking he can do that especially at this level is pretty unrealistic in my opinion.....

He can improve to become a great one for sure. This is only his 2nd year after all.
\

Not to mention, he already is "good enough" to be a drop back passer. He is a drop back passer. The issue isn't his ability to drop back, its his confidence in the knee (I think) in any SITUATION. Scrambling, dropping back or read option. If you "Now, now now" people could just wait a few minutes, I suspect we'll see the Griffin we're all waiting to see. And yeah, I mean a drop back, progression moving, read and react, appropriately scrambling speed threat QB.

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Postby SkinsJock » Thu Oct 03, 2013 4:03 pm

markshark84 wrote:
SkinsJock wrote:my point is more that this year's team is ('on paper') better than the team we had last year ... AND ... we have yet to see them play at the level that this year's team is capable of

I think that is going to happen and I look for a number of players to really lift their games and play at a much better level than we've seen so far :lol:

I also look for the DC and OC to do a better job getting ready for the pukes :roll:


Ok, but I think you and I see things differently.

What we have "on paper" means poop. This isn't Madden.

I'm not saying this as a shot (so please don't take it as one as it is 100% not intended to be one), but did you play the game in high school or college? The reason I ask is because how a team plays as a unit is much more important than how players play individually (i.e., "on paper"). This is the #1 thing Danny boy didn't understand when he bought the team. He had never played the game. He had no clue about team dynamic, on-field player roles, leadership, comfortability, trust, how certain schemes compliment players, etc. Therefore, he built the best team on paper and didn't factor in any of the other determinables --- the intangibles that make this game one of the most diffcult to predict.

But honestly, has this team not played to what it is "capable" of -- based on where they are? RGIII is still hurt and is not the dynamic playmaker he was last year. He looks like a "game manager" QB right now -- in that he isn't the one making plays --- he is the one facilitating the ball to the play-makers. The only problem is that this team only has 2 playmakers --- Garcon and Morris. And only having 2 playmakers makes defending a whole lot easier.

Until RGIII turns things around ---- we are playing to our capabilities (at least offensively).
- Our OL is doing enough (despite our lacking passing attack, our OL is still getting Morris 5.3 ypc and giving RGIII enough time to make a play),
- Morris is actually playing BETTER than last year given the circumstances,
- Garcon, Moss, and Hankerson are playing as well or better than last year
- TE play has improved from the prior year

Now defensively -- I agree. Our D is underperforming.

It goes to show just how incredible RGIII was last season. Until we see last year's version, we are unfortunetely playing to our offensive capabilities.

And to your final 2 points --- I hope that our players magically get better also, but that type of improvement doesn't just happen. Haslett has proven he is a below average DC. I honestly think KS is a solid OC --- he just designed an offense that no longer has the tools.


I am from Australia and have never played - I played rugby

I understand that nothing on paper counts and that I have no idea what is going on but I do know this ... there have been only 'additions' since last season and while that fact means nothing - nobody has given me a good explanation of why this group is not playing better together than the guys that played and coached here last year

I do NOT believe that RG3 is physically not able to do what he did - I may be proven wrong on that but I think the game planning has changed a lot and he's no longer as comfortable running this offense - I hope this changes to take better advantage of his speed - they do not have to risk him being hurt but they seemed to think that the offense we used last season was actually easier and less risky on a QB - why not go to that with the caveat that RG3 now understands that he cannot take the chances he took last season

The defense would be a lot more effective if they would simply make the tackle when the guy is in your grasp

nothing magically needs to happen here:

- we have a QB who is incredibly fast that we are not using properly - he is still fast, KS is not game planning an offense to take advantage of that

- we have defensive players NOT playing as well as they can - make the tackles

the coaches and players here do not need magic - they just need to do their jobs as well as they can - that would be a huge improvement all by itself
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Postby SkinsJock » Thu Oct 03, 2013 4:07 pm

'playing' computer games like Madden and Fantasy whatever it is, is just a complete waste of time

the only 'players' I care about each weekend, wear B&G and the other 3 guys in my foursome :lol:
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Postby StorminMormon86 » Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:30 am

SkinsJock wrote:and the other 3 guys in my foursome :lol:

That just doesn't sound right.

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